Charlie Bukowski

Do we need a 2 Tier System of Thoroughbred Racing

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Lets face it , no Clubs are going to close their doors.

The history is still too strong and emotions raw, and there's nothing wrong with that at the end of the day.

What say we take on board a bit of Australian nous.

City and Country Racing.

Maybe we can bump up the Stakes for City meetings and for the Country Clubs , if you aren't going to sell your tracks and assets , then be prepared for a lower tier of Racing Stakes.

Then we can see who survives and who fails but at least you have given yourselves a chance to survive.

The smaller Clubs (Country) don't need to cater for crowds so let the Racing speak for itself.

If your horse can't cut it in City grade then you may make ends meet by going through the Country grades.

I know , less Stakes but I'm sure you can make it work , ok the stakes maybe down on what they are now but let's think positively and know this system will work , working towards raising stakes if it works.

Ok, so the other side of the coin is City Racing and we can debate the Main Clubs, good grief they can sort that out for sure. The Stakes would be inherently better than what they are now and the downside is , if your horse doesn't cut the mustard then there's the Country circuit.

Hell that could even work for successful Country Clubs to maybe even make it to a City status down the line.

Here's hoping because what we're doing at the moment is simply not working.

Rugby Racing and Beer.............

Rugby is in shit street too.

Racing ...............say no more

Beer , yes not the domain of DB and Lion anymore is it , it's craft beer everywhere you look 

Cheers

 

 

 

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I presume this is where the future venue plan comes in to play.

Lower costs to race at the second tier meetings could still make a $10k to S15k attractive and achievable.

There are a lot of pieces that  need to work together and while the codes debate at select committee this whole ship might hit the rocks.

 

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3 hours ago, Charlie Bukowski said:

Lets face it , no Clubs are going to close their doors.

The history is still too strong and emotions raw, and there's nothing wrong with that at the end of the day.

What say we take on board a bit of Australian nous.

City and Country Racing.

Maybe we can bump up the Stakes for City meetings and for the Country Clubs , if you aren't going to sell your tracks and assets , then be prepared for a lower tier of Racing Stakes.

Then we can see who survives and who fails but at least you have given yourselves a chance to survive.

The smaller Clubs (Country) don't need to cater for crowds so let the Racing speak for itself.

If your horse can't cut it in City grade then you may make ends meet by going through the Country grades.

I know , less Stakes but I'm sure you can make it work , ok the stakes maybe down on what they are now but let's think positively and know this system will work , working towards raising stakes if it works.

Ok, so the other side of the coin is City Racing and we can debate the Main Clubs, good grief they can sort that out for sure. The Stakes would be inherently better than what they are now and the downside is , if your horse doesn't cut the mustard then there's the Country circuit.

Hell that could even work for successful Country Clubs to maybe even make it to a City status down the line.

Here's hoping because what we're doing at the moment is simply not working.

Rugby Racing and Beer.............

Rugby is in shit street too.

Racing ...............say no more

Beer , yes not the domain of DB and Lion anymore is it , it's craft beer everywhere you look 

Cheers

 

 

 

I don't think we have enough horses for that. We have the same horses racing now at midweek meetings for 10k one week as then race on a Saturday for 22 or 30k. I think it's fine in Oz but that we should have a single tier system here.

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3 hours ago, Leggy said:

I don't think we have enough horses for that. We have the same horses racing now at midweek meetings for 10k one week as then race on a Saturday for 22 or 30k. I think it's fine in Oz but that we should have a single tier system here.

Years ago,  we had a sort of 'tiered' or country circuit,  where the likes of Westport, Geraldine, or Kumara, say,  ran their 'cup' races for much less than the city clubs.  It meant that the lesser lights could still run in open races, but away from the classier sorts. It wasn't directed from on high,  the clubs just put on what they could afford.  It was still attractive, of course, to win a Nuggets [for example]  as there was the trophy, and a helluva lot of goodwill and whitebait to boot.  I recall Reefton gave gold nuggets as trophies, too - I still have one tucked away in a drawer.

Then,  things changed....it was decided that there were 'too many' cup races, and many of those clubs lost their open handicaps which became C3 races,  thus eliminating many open handicappers which were never going to win a listed race against good opposition.  At this time, many owners were lost,  some vowing never to race a horse again.  I personally know several who had raced horses for years - and just couldn't comprehend the idiocy at management level.   Wonder what they think now?

I recall Wyndham and Waikouaiti both raced on New Year's Day - both running open handicaps.  Wyndham was directed to run their 'Cup' race for C 3 horses....as was Westport.  Neither track now hosts gallop meetings,  and the demise of Westport undoubtedly had a flow-on effect on Nelson gallops too.

I don't know why it is that we have to tinker with what isn't really broken, just to break it properly.

Agree with Leggy, we don't have the population or geography to properly run a tiered system - or the management.  We have had industry days foisted upon us,  IMO they would serve a far better purpose if maidens and R 60, 65, 68 etc were run on those days for the lesser stake, and get all those languishing in R 65 through the system and out of the clutter - or into retirement or jumping [ had to put that in there] .

Then the weekend  days could cater for age group and R 72 and up and for better money.   Seems logical to me.       And these crazy feature/super feature/iconic/premier classifications mean - what,  exactly?    ...and Winston grandstanding about yet another'tier'  ?  ye gods,  isn't keeping things simple a better option ?

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I’ve long proposed we have meetings with $3000 races that are entirely penalty free...but conducted as a normal race meeting

You'd create far more betting product and reduce the number of horses being wasted as a resource going around and around at the trials 

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5 hours ago, Leggy said:
42 minutes ago, poundforpound said:

I’ve long proposed we have meetings with $3000 races that are entirely penalty free...but conducted as a normal race meeting

You'd create far more betting product and reduce the number of horses being wasted as a resource going around and around at the trials 

 

Not a bad idea at all.

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1 hour ago, poundforpound said:

I’ve long proposed we have meetings with $3000 races that are entirely penalty free...but conducted as a normal race meeting

You'd create far more betting product and reduce the number of horses being wasted as a resource going around and around at the trials 

You mean penalty free as in not rehandicapped?

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Australia has a multi tier race program. Metro, Country-TAB, Country Non-TAB (Picnic). For instance, this Sunday in Victoria there is a Country -TAB meeting at “Sporting Bet -Ballarat”. 8 races with each having a $35k stake paying down to 10th and one race $50k paying to 10th. There’s also a Country-Picnic (non TAB) meeting at Woolamai (south-East coastal town) and each race is worth $4k paying down to 8th place. The Woolamai meeting has field limits of 10 +4 emergencies and this Sunday the fields are FULL. I think this is what P4P is advocating. It works in Aust so why not in NZ? In Qld this Sat there are about 5 non-TAB Country meetings at places like Thargool, Innisfail etc with each race having stakes of $7450. There’s a Country - TAB meeting at Toowoomba with each race with $19k. I think NZers would dream of such a system of racing and as P4P quite rightly puts, the slower horses can be competing at these non-TAB meetings. 

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2 hours ago, poundforpound said:

I’ve long proposed we have meetings with $3000 races that are entirely penalty free...but conducted as a normal race meeting

You'd create far more betting product and reduce the number of horses being wasted as a resource going around and around at the trials 

Any meeting should take note of the fact that more turnover comes from oz and we should program ANY meeting ANY grade to take max advantage of the time zones to target the aussie punters without any competition.Start by having wednesdays for example to always feature a sth island meet, thursdays always a northern meet  etc...It will give the aussies AND us a more consistent product, more recognition of jockeys , horses etc which should encourage punting.We have natural advantages that need to be exploited very simply , very cheaply.

..

 

 

 

 

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I agree with p4p slightly but you would have to implement some sort of class or weight penalty maybe limit the amount of starts in a 12 month period as some horses may just keep going back to the penalty free race days. I know I would with the right horses. I didn't think there was much wrong with the old graduation opens-we had great success with older horses and 4kg claimers

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3 hours ago, poundforpound said:

I’ve long proposed we have meetings with $3000 races that are entirely penalty free...but conducted as a normal race meeting

You'd create far more betting product and reduce the number of horses being wasted as a resource going around and around at the trials 

I agree with this......it is especially pertinent to Harness racing in North where there is a serious shortage of horses but Gallops too heading that way.

If horses win a  lowly race or two they are suddenly handicapped out of any future earnings.....it may take 3 x months of not having any hope of earning before the horse gets competitive again.

If its like v like and horses can continue racing which boosts field size and interest for punters then I say its a win /win having tiered racing.

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I like this idea in whatever form it might take , what is a must for me is starters payment for all runners . Owners have to start feeling that their are not always shelling out , even moderate horses add value to the gambling product and the owners have to have a reason to continue on with these average horses . I know i would have kept some going longer if i knew i wasn't always pulling out my wallet .You only have to look at some horses racing in Aussie country tracks , no form , 5th's , 6th's , 7th's etc and their getting $300/400 just for turning up . Showing owners that their not getting taken for granted will make a huge difference in the number of horses in training staying in training .

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Until the betting is fixed, nothing will go forward. All money for stakes comes from betting. That’s the Prime Income Source. If you want to grow the business, there has to be attractive betting incentives. Does NZ offer that? Some would say no.

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1 hour ago, Trump said:

Until the betting is fixed, nothing will go forward. All money for stakes comes from betting. That’s the Prime Income Source. If you want to grow the business, there has to be attractive betting incentives. Does NZ offer that? Some would say no.

Totally agreed....I this this fact is often overlooked when discussing NZ racing's demise and precarious position.

Also the actual cost of the TAB running a raceday ,getting the Trackside truck and crew there ,the betting terminals and staff travel and accommodation etc and now more and more health and safety and compliance issues.

Sadly too much of NZ racing historically didn't build the infrastructure to future proof their continued investment 

Comparisons of the turnover of a small country club who is blessed with a good Summer holiday date v a bigger city club is kinda pointless.

Your old 'joint' Ellerslie IMO is an outstanding facility ,track seems improved now too.......and they have the big advantage of $40mil investments and equity of $140mil ...quite sound !

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As I have said many , many times on this forum, Ellerslie should conduct racing every 2nd Saturday, with the ARC putting in a Strath Ayr track.

The population is there, people would know that racing was being conducted on a regular basis, and it might just get people back on course.

The facility is wasted, get with the times, promote the best facilities in NZ.

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Talking of racing instead of trials , last week at Riccarton they dumped a 2 year old  race because of lack of entrants . Today two decent sized trials for the 2 year olds are run there pre racing over 800 metres. Why isn't it a race for money and something called betting  . Iam confused . 3 grand a month training  running for nothing instead of cash on offer  last week. Why didnt they reinstate race today , drop it to 800 and go . Fxxk my days the whole team of officials , trainers , medical , docs , photo finish equipment,  racebook,  door openers , maintainance crew  and most importantly paddock poop picker upperer there for meeting .

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Speaking for me only -  I have two taking part.  They are/were both readying for trials at Rangiora in a couple of weeks,  and I didn't consider either of them professional enough to have some poor sod risk their hard-earned on with a bet by running them last week.  It is a chance for them to learn a bit.

Can't answer for the others,  though.     One runner has already trialled,  and won.   Why it trials again instead of racing beats me.

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3 minutes ago, Pam Robson said:

Speaking for me only -  I have two taking part.  They are/were both readying for trials at Rangiora in a couple of weeks,  and I didn't consider either of them professional enough to have some poor sod risk their hard-earned on with a bet by running them last week.  It is a chance for them to learn a bit.

Can't answer for the others,  though.     One runner has already trialled,  and won.   Why it trials again instead of racing beats me.

13 over the two trials , surprised 8 couldn't be found for 3 divi race .Seems wasteful .

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On 2/20/2020 at 8:01 AM, poundforpound said:

I’ve long proposed we have meetings with $3000 races that are entirely penalty free...but conducted as a normal race meeting

You'd create far more betting product and reduce the number of horses being wasted as a resource going around and around at the trials 

Not sure what the country and Picnic clubs put up for stakes but for the lesser harness meetings in Aussie they race for $3, $5 and $7K, some even less. In support of P4P's proposal what this also does is bring out a goodly number of hobby trainers and owner trainer drivers who just want an interest with the fair chance of a return, however small. I think prizemoney is also paid on the day. Gymkhana -style but good to keep people in the industry and, of course, good for betting. However here our problem is horse numbers and too many racemeetings.

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3 hours ago, Blue said:

Not sure what the country and Picnic clubs put up for stakes but for the lesser harness meetings in Aussie they race for $3, $5 and $7K, some even less. In support of P4P's proposal what this also does is bring out a goodly number of hobby trainers and owner trainer drivers who just want an interest with the fair chance of a return, however small. I think prizemoney is also paid on the day. Gymkhana -style but good to keep people in the industry and, of course, good for betting. However here our problem is horse numbers and too many racemeetings.

Every meeting , all details on RISA site . Kojunup in WA 5k and Condobolin NSW 4k today , both on dirt. Though when I looked at photos of Kojunup it looked more dirty dusty grass or grass growing through the dirt surface so watch your bets on that one .

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