We're Doomed

Where would you rate Melody Belle in the list of great mares?

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I thought that since she has now retired it might be interesting to see how people rated Melody Belle in the list of great NZ trained fillies and mares we have seen in the last 50 years or so. 50 years as that is the period I can recall seeing some of the great mares in person or on TV; I know we had some pretty impressive and dominant types back before then.

Personally, I would rate her inside the top 20, but probably not inside the top 15. So in absolute terms 16th to 20th for me.

Perhaps I could have done a poll. Do you rate her 1-5; 6-10; 11-15; 16-20; 21-25; 26+

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I do not rate Melody Belle out of the top 15, so without doubt I would like to know your top 15 as well. We all talk about different era's often enough. I have Show Gate in my top 5 along with Melody Belle, and both ahead of Seachange

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5 hours ago, Nerula said:

SUNLINE was said to be the Best Mare in the World.. That will do me

Done it at range of trips, in tough handicaps as well  and beat one of HK best ever horses Fairy King Prawn on his home turf  , must be close to number 1 . 

That Dubai 3rd too a huge run behind Jim N Tonic a top line world traveller , she finished in front of Slicky that day , he never lost another race winning 4 on bounce including Prix Moulin and two other group 1s .

In forth that day in Dubai was Golden Silca trained by Mick Channon . Ex England footballer and very good trainer . Week or so ago  he ran filly he owns for 3rd time, horse has zero ability , probably the worst horse in his yard I'd guess , sadly she has been named Sunline !!! , should really be a protected name IMHO. 

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Princess Coup is another one who was classy... won the Kelt twice when it was a top race, NZ Oaks, 2nd in Aus Cup, MacKinnon, Ranvet, BMW, 3rd Caulfield Cup.

Silent Achiever won the NZ Derby, Ranvet, BMW, 3rd Cox Plate.

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29 minutes ago, tasman man said:

My list....

My favourite.....Show Gate.....saw her a lot !

My list.....

Sunline

Melody Belle 

Show Gate

Seachange

Ethereal

Empire Rose

Horlicks

 

 

 

 

opinions are like arseholes, but i would rate melody belle above ethereal like i would Nottingham forest above Manchester united

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Happyandunoit was pretty handy , Group 1 performer in NZ and OZ as a 2 year old year old and won three Group 1s stateside over a couple years having some very good fillies and mares behind her , all three  Group 1 wins stateside at Hollywood Park, won couple other races too over  there from Frankel barn including First Lady Stakes at Keeneland .

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I think that comparisons are, inevitably,  subjective;  and given the impossibility of running them all in competition together,  futile.   Opposition, training methods,  track conditions, all play a part in a horse's record.

So, while I couldn't - and wouldn't - presume to 'rate' any of them, surely La Mer has to be in the mix?

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These would be rated higher

Sunline – Undisputed champion

Horlicks – World record holder

Showgate – Undisputed champion

Let’s Elope – Caufield & Melbourne Cups

Blue Denim – AJC Oaks, Tancred, Auckland Cup

Tudor Light – Railway, Easter

Yahabeebee – undisputed champion

Desert Gold – undisputed champion

Ethereal – Caufield and Melbourne Cup, Tancred

Empire Rose – McKinnon, Melbourne Cup

Cuddle – undisputed Champion

My Gold Hope Doncaster, All Aged

Analie Oaks, QTC Oaks, QTC Derby, Doncaster, Metropoliton

La Mer  34 for 24-2-2

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Why is the need to compare past great mares?

For me SHOW GATE and SEACHANGE, because they both raced out of there skins under injury clouds.

SUNLINE. I rate highly because she won group 1 races on both sides of the Tasman. 

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I cant see why people pick holes in her, she won 14 group 1s ffs,and one in was against the best Mares in Aus.  

Funny thing I've noticed is anyone who train,rides or owns horses seem to give these champions there due credit and it's the ones who aren't actually invested in the game are ones who find the negatives. God, I'd give my left nut to have one good enough to be competitive in one group 1 let alone good enough to win 14 of them. 

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Some fantastic mares on the lists above. Those Melbourne Cup winners, all those Cox Plates runs with SUNLINE were outstanding, Japan Cup winner included even.

Hard to compare era to era accurately . As you can't use race records/ times run. can't use prize-money won as is irrelevant, even total number of race wins doesn't matter as all sorts of horses have large number of wins over the years, nor trainer. been plenty of good trainers.

But you have the Number of GROUP 1 wins , which may be the marker of the very best ?? 

So Winx for Oz, and Sunline and Melody Belle for NZ my Top 3 ever,, on that G1 basis.

Jamie Kah being declared the best female Jockey ever (on the basis of recording her 6th Group 1 win yesterday)  at Eagle Farm apparently.

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1 hour ago, Aaron Bidlake said:

I cant see why people pick holes in her, she won 14 group 1s ffs,and one in was against the best Mares in Aus.  

Funny thing I've noticed is anyone who train,rides or owns horses seem to give these champions there due credit and it's the ones who aren't actually invested in the game are ones who find the negatives. God, I'd give my left nut to have one good enough to be competitive in one group 1 let alone good enough to win 14 of them. 

Totally agree...one thing IS for sure she was the best of her generation here in NZ...I for one would love to own one 10% as good as she was and sound until the day she retired...cheers.

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4 hours ago, Berri said:

These would be rated higher

Sunline – Undisputed champion

Horlicks – World record holder

Showgate – Undisputed champion

Let’s Elope – Caufield & Melbourne Cups

Blue Denim – AJC Oaks, Tancred, Auckland Cup

Tudor Light – Railway, Easter

Yahabeebee – undisputed champion

Desert Gold – undisputed champion

Ethereal – Caufield and Melbourne Cup, Tancred

Empire Rose – McKinnon, Melbourne Cup

Cuddle – undisputed Champion

My Gold Hope Doncaster, All Aged

Analie Oaks, QTC Oaks, QTC Derby, Doncaster, Metropoliton

La Mer  34 for 24-2-2

Nice to get your champagne opinion Berri though your old mate Paul Moroney may be a little miffed his mare gets no mention.

And some of your contribution goes well outside the criteria of the thread....in past 50 years and NZ trained !

Of course if any sort of points system was given to try and rank them , the Aussie and International wins would warrant a 'bonus' !

However IMO the popularity,newsworthyness and interest created by a horses career in NZ is significant along with local ownership.

Those with Books about them ,on stamps and Permanent memories apparent rate highly ,if not as 'best' but 'best loved'.

And the winners of NZ horse of year.

Showgate won this twice I believe but never won a race in Australia.

Empire Rose won the NZ Cup , 11 days after placing in Melbourne Cup , that special too !

'

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Tricky part is where it starts and finishes. Very Elegant should have been put on my list. Happyanyouknowit was a very good mare but didn't smash the heights that are on that list. I'm into franking form so I was looking for mares that had gone against the best and beaten them in extraordinary circumstances. Unfortunately although a sensational racemare (and I'd love to own her) whenever MB fronted in the big time in the best competition, she couldn't quite get there. NZ form is now 4kgs behind Aussie form and that made the difference.

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Very hard to compare mares of different eras and generations...I was lucky enough to be with Malcolm Smith when he had La Mer she was an absolute machine...so I say enjoy them for what they are and why does one have to be better than another...they are all champions in one way or another.....anyway thats my 2 cents worth.

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25 minutes ago, scooby3051 said:

Very hard to compare mares of different eras and generations...I was lucky enough to be with Malcolm Smith when he had La Mer she was an absolute machine...so I say enjoy them for what they are and why does one have to be better than another...they are all champions in one way or another.....anyway thats my 2 cents worth.

It's a sporting discussion like any other sport  ,  discussing if  Maradona  was better than Pele would be a similar   means nothing,  it's just enthusiasts shooting the breeze , not sure why people get so cheesed off with it , if I think Maradona was better than Pele that's fine,  it's an opinion worth bugger all , don't make one jot of difference like 90 per cent of sporting discussion

.

 

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27 minutes ago, scooby3051 said:

Very hard to compare mares of different eras and generations...I was lucky enough to be with Malcolm Smith when he had La Mer she was an absolute machine...so I say enjoy them for what they are and why does one have to be better than another...they are all champions in one way or another.....anyway thats my 2 cents worth.

In my racing memory bank she was absolutely outstanding. Remember a rails run win at Ellerslie a bit like Rough Habit in Queensland .Back in the day we had depth of talent at the top level, fuller fields and less attrition to Australia and HK. Could it be stakes relativity was better then?🤣

IMO Melody Belle was a very good performer, who beat what lined up against her, but over the last 2 seasons especially, 2xLivamols, 2x Windsor Parks and latest Thorndon were rubbish fields (apart from Avantage) FOR Gp 1 STATUS--the grading surely cannot survive if this continues?

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The mare that I am going to mention was never going to make the above list "Yukiko"

But she did leave a handy racehorse called Danjike, a $10,000 purchase from Karaka. Trained in Te Awamutu.

A group and listed winner. Ridden by Bruce Compton.

Can anybody tell me what the above great mares have left to race AND WIN MAJOR RACES.

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22 minutes ago, pole said:

The mare that I am going to mention was never going to make the above list "Yukiko"

But she did leave a handy racehorse called Danjike, a $10,000 purchase from Karaka. Trained in Te Awamutu.

A group and listed winner. Ridden by Bruce Compton.

Can anybody tell me what the above great mares have left to race AND WIN MAJOR RACES.

La Mer granddaughter was Bahr a very good horse Grp1 winner , Bahr produced Nahrain who was high class and Nahrain produced Benbatl .There might be others from her daughters as she went to some decent stallions.  

I am sure earlier in season there looked a handy horse by daughter of Sunline  but name escapes me , no champion but sure they mentioned it on trackside. 

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If no one objects, from a UK perspective.

MELODY BELLE seems to this observer to be incredibly consistent, reliable and genuine. Her main exposure to European form was when chasing home MAGIC WAND in the MacKinnon. MAGIC WAND is rated 115 up here so you could argue MELODY BELLE would be 114 so a solid Group 2 European performer.

SUNLINE - it's 20 years ago  - she was third in the Dubai Turf in 2001. @Red Rumhas already spoken of GOLDEN SILCA who was behind her in fourth.

GOLDEN SILCA went on to the Queen Anne at Ascot in 2001 and finished down the field behind MEDICEAN who had already won the Lockinge. Sixth at Newbury and third at Ascot was one ARKADIAN HERO, trained by Luca Cumani, who had finished one place behind GOLDEN SILCA in Dubai.

On the ratings, ARKADIAN HERO was 119, GOLDEN SILCA 108. so whose form line do you take? You can argue on a line through ARKADIAN HERO, SUNLINE would have given MEDICEAN a real race at Ascot and he was rated 122 so she would have been in the low 120s and a Group 1 European horse. Through GOLDEN SILCA, she comes out more like 111 so a solid Group 2 horse.

I don't know and it's not my area of expertise but it's an entertaining diversion.

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