scooby3051

Black Caviar and Winx: Two Legends that can't be split Winx (left) and Black Caviar will later this year together be elevated to Legend status in the Australian Racing Hall Of Fame. By Ray Thomas 08:10am • 24 June 2025 Winx or Black Caviar? Who was the greatest? The mighty mares were both freakish champions and trying to determine who is the best is the subject of robust debate. There is a school of thought that comparing champions of different eras is a futile exercise but racing – and other sports – is built on comparisons. We all like to consider how Phar Lap would have gone against today's champions. Or, who is the best racehorse, Secretariat or Frankel? It's the same in other sports. In cricket, we are forever comparing the records of modern day batters like Steve Smith to the legendary Sir Donald Bradman. In rugby league, is Wally Lewis better than Andrew Johns? Is Reg Gasnier or John Raper the best of them all?View All It's the same with AFL. There's plenty in Leigh Matthews' corner, Gary Ablett Senior is in the conversation, as are Ted Whitten, John Coleman and Tony Lockett. There are always comparisons between Michael Jordan or LeBron James as the best basketballer, and does any boxer challenge Muhammad Ali as the greatest of all-time? In tennis, there is ongoing debate about the best player of the modern era – Roger Federer, Rafael Nadal or Novak Djokovic? And how do they rate against the only man to win the Grand Slam twice, Rod Laver? The point is comparing champion racehorses is like debating the greats of other sports – it's a fun exercise and we all do it. But when analysing the race careers of Winx and Black Caviar, how do you split them? The amazing records of legends of the turf Black Caviar and Winx. This was the dilemma facing the Australian Racing Hall of Fame selection committee when determining which of these two mares would be elevated to "Legend" status at the Hall of Fame-Racehorse of the Year awards in Brisbane on August 31. There are only three racehorses elevated to the Legend category so far – Phar Lap, Carbine and Makybe Diva – and it is the most elite honour in Australian racing. Winx and Black Caviar are both deserving of "Legend'' status, it was just a matter of when. And trying to decide who would go in first was like asking which mare would win if they clashed over 1400m at weight-for-age? In the end, the selection panel simply couldn't split them and made the unprecedented but sensible call to elevate both Winx and Black Caviar to "Legend" status the same year. "It is fitting Black Caviar and Winx are going in as a ‘Legend' together,'' said Peter Moody, trainer of Black Caviar. "They are both great mares and it was only a matter of time, with all due respect, they were both going to get that honour and very deservedly so.'' Hall of Fame chairman Jason Scott echoed the sentiments of the entire selection panel when he said: "Debate has raged for years over which of the two champion mares is the greatest we've seen, however what is certain is that their legacies transcend far beyond the boundaries of racing. "It's deserving that they both be bestowed ‘Legend' status in the Australian Racing Hall of Fame together, befitting of their stature as two of the best we have and will ever have the (good) fortune to see". Winx won 37 of her 43 races, including her last 33 races in succession, featuring a world record 25 at Group 1 level. She was so good they made a movie about her. "I always admired Winx's determination and the uncomplicated way she went about her work and racing,'' Waller said. "She didn't require any extra fuss. "She was a high performance athlete with an amazing amount of talent, and she captured the imagination. "When I talk to people about Winx, there's nothing but ultimate respect for her. It is fitting she has been elevated to ‘Legend' status.'' Black Caviar was simply unbeatable. 25 starts, 25 wins, 15 at Group 1 level. Surely there has never been a better sprinter than this magnificent mare. She won most of her races effortlessly, running fast times and breaking the hearts of her chasing rivals. Even when she wasn't at her absolute best, like the 2012 Diamond Jubilee Stakes at Royal Ascot, they still couldn't beat her. "Black Caviar changed my life,'' Moody said. "Every day, I still think about her and then when Royal Ascot comes each year around you relive those great memories again. She was a once-in-a-lifetime horse.''

She is very annoying too..just give her time.

Dont worry to much about him seems he is like a dinosaur elsewhere...left behind in the past.You are right we as an industry MUST move with the times and change with them.

It is way OTT and as you say needs to be stopped...you do not see the team at Racing.com carry on like muppets patting each other on the back about the bloody league...concentrate on learning about what you are supposed to be professionally presenting...most of you cant even get that right sadly..

Nah no need for cruelty for a sport....those days are long gone and if we as an industry do not realize it then we are doomed.

We all get old...its life.

No matter the terminology he was a super racehorse trainer

I will let SNM decide but as it is the first week maybe he might get a chance....rules are rules from here on out.

The Wayne Lukas Honor Roll.

One of the best ever USA racehorse trainers has retired due to ill health...I wish him and his family well during this tough time...A true Legend of the sport..... D. Wayne Lukas hospitalized, won't return to training horses Associated Press Jun 22, 2025, 04:41 PM LOUISVILLE, Ky. -- Hall of Fame horse racing trainer D. Wayne Lukas has been hospitalized and will not return to training, Churchill Downs announced Sunday after speaking with members of his family. Lukas' family said the 89-year-old has battled a severe infection that has worsened and that he has declined an aggressive treatment plan to instead return home. His horses have been transferred to assistant trainer Sebastian "Bas" Nicholl. "Wayne built a legacy that will never be matched," Nicholl said. "Every decision I make, every horse I saddle, I'll hear his voice in the back of my mind. This isn't about filling his shoes -- no one can. It's about honoring everything that he's built." Hall of Famer D. Wayne Lukas, whose 15 Triple Crown victories are second only to Bob Baffert, has been hospitalized and won't return to training horses. Michael Reaves/Getty Images Lukas is one of the most accomplished people in the history of the sport. His 15 Triple Crown victories are second only to good friend Bob Baffert, and Lukas has a record-tying 20 in the Breeders Cup. He won the Kentucky Derby four times since 1988. His most recent victory in the Triple Crown came last year with Seize the Grey in the Preakness, his seventh -- one short of Baffert's record. "Wayne is one of the greatest competitors and most important figures in Thoroughbred racing history," Churchill Downs president Mike Anderson said. "He transcended the sport of horse racing and took the industry to new levels. The lasting impact of his character and wisdom, from his acute horsemanship to his unmatched attention to detail, will be truly missed. The enormity of this news is immense, and our prayers are with his family and friends around the world during this difficult time." Lukas is affectionately known around the barns and the racetrack as "Coach" because he coached high school basketball before his professional career with horses began. Even with months to go before his 90th birthday, he would get up on his pony in the early morning hours and go out to the track himself, rather than letting his assistants do the day-to-day work. Born Darnell Wayne Lukas on Sept. 2, 1935, in Wisconsin as the second of three children, he rose to prominence in the sport with quarter horses in races that are effectively sprints. He moved into thoroughbreds in the late 1970s and won his first Preakness with Codex in 1980. Lukas has 4,967 documented victories in thoroughbred racing, with his horses earning more than $310 million from over 30,600 starts.

That is not here...and the rule here is very clear...only thing missing is the rule being enforced....but let's not let the facts spoil a good lock down.

Good on him for perseverance ...he obviously knows how to train a horse...sad so many owner trainers are no more....

I do not think these rules are poorly written...maybe if you don't really understand the horse or racing, then maybe you could have some difficulty, but normal, reasonable people should have no issues.

This was taken from AI online....I think this is where we should be heading. Impact on Horse Behavior Research indicates that the use of whips during races often causes physical and psychological harm to horses. Whipping can lead to behavioral responses such as increased anxiety and stress, which may be visible through signs like tail swishing, pinned ears, or erratic movements. Horses that are subjected to whipping may experience desensitization, making them less responsive over time, which can lead to reduced performance in races and a diminished bond of trust between the horse and rider. Psychological Trauma: The pain from whipping can harm the horse’s mental state. As horses are prey animals, they evolve to flee from threats; thus, the fear and discomfort associated with whipping can make them anxious and prone to stress-related behaviors. Long-term exposure to such aversive stimuli can lead to learned helplessness, a state where an animal perceives its stressors as unavoidable, leading to detrimental impacts on performance and overall welfare . Performance Outcomes: Studies have shown that whipping does not significantly enhance racing performance. For instance, a study conducted at the University of Sydney found no correlation between whip use and improved race times; in fact, races conducted without whip use demonstrated comparable if not better performance outcomes. This suggests that the reliance on whipping may not only be unnecessary but can also provoke fear in horses, diminishing their inherent competitive drive Regulation and Cultural Shift The conversation surrounding whipping has intensified, prompting changes in New Zealand's racing regulations. Recognizing the potential for animal welfare abuse, New Zealand Thoroughbred Racing (NZTR) has called for a reevaluation of whip policies, aiming to align with international best practices. Current Regulations: Existing rules allow restrict the number of strikes a jockey can make with the whip, and any excessive use leads to sanctions. Despite these rules, incidents of excessive whipping have been reported, highlighting the challenges in enforcement and the need for better oversight Industry Perspectives: Growing public and industry consensus suggests that the use of whips could be phased out entirely. The idea that whips are necessary for the safety and performance of horses is being increasingly questioned, as evidenced by a significant body of scientific research stating that proper technique in riding and training can effectively replace the need for whipping without compromising the horse's welfare Conclusion In summary, whipping has significant negative consequences for horse behavior in thoroughbred racing in New Zealand. The growing concern regarding harm to racehorses emphasizes the need for a cultural shift within the industry towards more humane practices. With continued advocacy for banning whipping and implementing alternative training methods, the thoroughbred racing community is poised to rethink its stance on the use of whips, ultimately prioritizing the welfare of the horses involved.

But even comfortable old boots wear out and get holes in them.

I see Leggy as you were winning you have been shut down...again...it wont happen here.

Thats a good start....needs to be more of it. Funny how some dont know the difference between a rule and an amendment to a rule...bit like not knowing the difference between your ar** and your elbow.....

So two parts of the rule being broken...Flanks and welts from what has been shown so far...and NOT a single word from the stipes...nothing.

I dont know that for a fact...do you have stats that say that???

Then why do the bother to have a rule and not police it...seems they are asking for trouble...stop it before it becomes an even bigger issue...be proactive not reactive.

Thats good of Justin to do that. I hope Justin does learn from him he is one of the very best there is.

Leggy has had correspondence on this with NZTR and they really seem to not want to do much about changing things...Is that correct Leggy???

I know the guy rides extremely well...but that is blatantly hitting the flanks.....blind Freddie could see that. So I ask why have a rule if it is not enforced???? Are you sure you have not manipulated this....

Guys take this conversation to the Breeding Forum...cheers.....this is not the place....this is for the punting comp.

That was unofficial...it is up to everyone to record their on scores...Saynomore made that clear in the head post...no harm done anyway...cheers.