WELL DONE LJ SHANNON ON WINNING THE FIRST ROUND OF THE TWO WEEK COMP.
Guest

Trainers in Canterbury revolt!

Recommended Posts

Guest

I read this morning in the Harness Xpress that 21 Trainers in Canterbury met this week and all 21 voted that they want the new points grading system that has only just been brought in to be thrown out.

They state that it is not working and is promoting mediocrity and causing the better horses to be sold overseas.

Personally when it first came in I wasn't a fan but on a punting perspective I now think it is great.

However it is going to be interesting to see how HRNZ are going to react to this initiative from our trainers.

There are better systems that could have been brought in like Stakes won etc.

Think it would be great if the drivers could get together to get the 10 hits with the whip rule amended.

Interesting times ahead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why not get another 42 trainers with views in favour of the system together and have them vote on it.  Then write an article where you could say there is double the number in favour of it.   The point being that to say getting together 21  trainers with similar opinions is a true reflection of what people think is just a nonsense. The point of the new system was to create greater participation for the good of the whole industry,not just those at the top end. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Trainers vote for social welfare payment in Auckland ( 38 v's every owner ) and Canterbury trainers ( 21 and no against they say - rubbish ) think the rating system should go ! Again the owner who pays these trainers no say or asking of their opinion.

Are all trainers in NZ selfish individuals - if you don't like it get out .

How about trying something for a while instead of complaining  - try being a bread and butter owner and see how your bank balance looks !

I say again trainers get out if you don't like it and try something else.I am sure the others after you 21 selfish individuals have left will feel better about their lot .

Many owner has been made redundant or changed career- so try it and stop blaming everyone else . 

Get out of the game .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/12/2017 at 1:32 PM, Brodie said:

I read this morning in the Harness Xpress that 21 Trainers in Canterbury met this week and all 21 voted that they want the new points grading system that has only just been brought in to be thrown out.

They state that it is not working and is promoting mediocrity and causing the better horses to be sold overseas.

 

 

6 hours ago, hsvman said:

To be fair I think the trainers want a system that will help not hurt the owners horses ? 

This Harness Xpress is good at stirring.

What did the Harness Xpress put forward as the solution? What is the trainer's solution?

Please lay it out in some detail. I am looking forward to it. If either don't have one then they don't have much intelligence - moaning about something new is usually the lowest form of intelligence,

Also, I presume the old system changed because participants didn't like it. This, obviously didn't include owners and trainers!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
Just now, Happy Sunrise said:

 

This Harness Xpress is good at stirring.

What did the Harness Xpress put forward as the solution? What is the trainer's solution?

Please lay it out in some detail. I am looking forward to it. If either don't have one then they don't have much intelligence - moaning about something new is usually the lowest form of intelligence,

Also, I presume the old system changed because participants didn't like it. This, obviously didn't include owners and trainers!

Don't agree that it is stirring, Harness Xpress is very good at advising us of what is going on!

Domt know what the answer is, but I beleive that programming should include some races on Stakes won.

I quite like parts of the new grading system although there are often anomalies but then nothing is perfect.

It is all about keeping enough owners in the business with enough horses and then keeping the punters satisfied enough to invest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Newmarket said:

Harness mag says 21 unhappy. Amazed its not on mainstream TV. Was M Jones there Brodie

The horsemen shared their views at the Yaldhurst
Hotel gathering, and chair for the meeting, Horsemen’s
Association and National Council rep Mark Jones, said
the call for quick changes to the newly-introduced points
system was met without opposition.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Guarantee they are the trainers of the top echelon of horses who used the concessions offered to the rising stars under the old system to full advantage at the expense of those battling through (or stuck in) the lower grades.

Now that those battlers have been given a lifeline and the age group concessions have been tightened they don't like it (less free wins).

Those battlers may only be mediocre, but they still have owners paying the bills ..... not all owners are lucky enough to race superstars or have the money the buy them!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Taku Umanga said:

Guarantee they are the trainers of the top echelon of horses who used the concessions offered to the rising stars under the old system to full advantage at the expense of those battling through (or stuck in) the lower grades.

Now that those battlers have been given a lifeline and the age group concessions have been tightened they don't like it (less free wins).

Those battlers may only be mediocre, but they still have owners paying the bills ..... not all owners are lucky enough to race superstars or have the money the buy them!

I always get the impression trotting people don't actually like going through the grades too quickly. Many "battlers" are happy to keep their charges in the lower grades. I'm afraid I don't understand the new ratings system at all, but in old terms I could never understand how there were so many maidens and one wine races every week throughout the SI and yet clubs struggled to fill class 2, 3, 4 etc races. Where did the winners go? Were they all sold? And you have to get rid of those penalty free junior driver races. They are usually for class 1 horses so that is one less horse to move through the grades.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

having raced horses (3 )under new system there are many anomalies and discussed these with a hrnz board member including the pref barrier draw system. sometimes used and sometimes not even when the rules stated would only be used if wide rating . I agree some horses with 6 to 8 wins dropping back to the old c1 with 80000 in the bank is a bit tough but the system allows these horses to keep racing and if they start winning again then they will have to compete with the better horses. The like with like is good in theory but needs at least 12  to 18 months for horses to reach their level (of incompetence LOL, ) and have sufficient similar rated horses to card even fields. secret squirrel meetings are too soon as this radical change might just work in the long term.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to point something out. The title of the thread is Canterbury Trainers Revolt. Not true. There is a group of Canterbury trainers who are not happy with the points system but a revolt will only happen if each and every one of them refuse to nominate or start ANY HORSES for , say, a month - that's a revolt! But......there is no chance of that happening so long as owners are paying $50 a day training fees to get their horses to the races. Horse trainers are just like dairy farmers - a lot of griping, and often with just cause, but there's no way you can get concensus of opinion or plan of action.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Was just watching the box seat which covered this topic. The mark jones Interview was interesting. It seems he thinks the better horses are being  disadvantaged by the new system and he and those of similar thinking want a change. He even suggested that there was a possibility they would like to revert back to the old system. He quite rightly pointed out the old system allowed for better programming of races than was provided, I know he has previously mooted a money won together with rating system as a way of having fields compiled.                      What I thought alarming was his statement that hrnz had indicated they would look favourably on the horsemens recommendations.  Why do I say that?   Well firstly I was very surprised that anyone would make a statement as to the success or failure of the new system without addressing the success or failure of the widely publicised reasons for bringing in the new system in the first place.  According to one of the reports I have just reread online,the 2 key goals were firstly to increase betting turnover by creating more even fields with fewer short priced favourites. and secondly to increase the longevity of a horses career and increase starter numbers  as this was required so field sizes could be maintained in the future due to a decrease in the number of horses being bred.                  I think it rather disturbing that hrnz would even consider such a move without any data to back up  why. Surely this industry is doomed if its leadership acts like this.                               Heres the thing.   If the data shows the new system is not achieving its stated goals then fair enough to reconsider it. However if it is achieving its stated goals, as it appears, then why would you pander to a certain group, albeit powerful and well intentioned. that's my view.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest

What A Post, I saw the interview as well and was surprised that Mark said that HRNZ had said that is was easy to go back to the old system.

Actually no I am not surprised that they would say that, as they seem to change rules whilly nilly without a hell of a lot of thought of the consequences.

There have been many instances of this in recent years.

Personally think that now that the system is in place it is too early to chuck it out!

As stated previously there should be a Stakes won component in programming, but that is probably too simple.

The supposed problem is that some think that we are encouraging mediocrity and pandering to the lower class horses.

The issue to me is that there is no money racing middle class horses as there aren't enough races for them due to lack of entries as owners tend to sell if costs keep increasing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How can they expect everything to be ticketyboo over night - has taken 6 mnths in the North and still the complete pool of horses have not all found their level.    Mark & his mates will have to be patient for at least 12 months until ALL horses have 1) raced under the new system and 2) found their present level.     Cannot compare horses just starting out after a break with those who have been racing for a while until everyone has raced under the new system.    Yes, there will be anomolies rearing their heads but administrators will need to keep a wary eye out and also be receptive to owners/trainers who want their horses asessment looked at.     And of course clubs have to think under the new system when programming their cards - conditions like R58 & faster must be avoided and replaced with a top & bottom rating R58 to R68 especially where mobiles are concerned - the outside of the second row is not sufficient handicap in many instances.       Of course the fall off of available stock is a huge barrier to the industry and needs more than a band aid solution.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Having watched races in recent weeks the same pattern keeps repeating. That is how well 2 year olds  seem to perform in the races they end up racing in under this new handicapping system. Same again at addington tonight.. Strangely it seems many  of the high profile trainers actually want a system introduced that favours them even more.   When are they going to realise what they say is not actually happening or do they just want to go back to cleaning up the same fields each week that they have proven they could beat the week before.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From what I hear about the second meeting- big with 70 attending - all trainers managed to do was make them look more like spoilt brats than they are already .

A) Slandering paid employees who are trying to impliment a system they asked for !

B ) Not firm workable alternative

C) No mention of the owner who puts food on their table - none at all !

D) Just a rabble yelling arguing and making unfounded comments about all and sundry with no thought

From what I have heard thank god they have no say or input in how the country is run as they are just a rabble with nil class !

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

best race of the year finish wise last night r1   amateurs  2.5 lengths first to last - slow time for slow horse but ultra competitive finish- rating system keeping those horses in a bunch makes good betting and close racing- no good for a punter watching a horse on a 60 rating trying to battle an 80 horse of the same mark in a mobile- like a game of tennis 2 even bad players make for good betting rather than a u beaut playing me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest

Tim, great to see that you are now into the young horses.

I am sure you will get great results, as you have done a superb job with several South Island cast offs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, LongOwner said:

From what I hear about the second meeting- big with 70 attending - all trainers managed to do was make them look more like spoilt brats than they are already .

A) Slandering paid employees who are trying to impliment a system they asked for !

B ) Not firm workable alternative

C) No mention of the owner who puts food on their table - none at all !

D) Just a rabble yelling arguing and making unfounded comments about all and sundry with no thought

From what I have heard thank god they have no say or input in how the country is run as they are just a rabble with nil class !

 

Probably just an indication of the pressure many are under to survive in an industry they have such a passion for. Sounds like many felt the need to express themselves, whether they were articuiate or not ,we should not be too judgmental on the way some delivered their message. As to your valid points.      A) Those that work at hrnz would know they are never going to please everyone when it comes to such a contentious issue as the handicapping system. Those that work at hrnz all have the best interests of the industry at heart, but it is very important that they  make decisions based on what is good for the industry as a whole. They just have to look at the big picture.  Whatever decisions they make, they must be proactive in selling the benefits  and reasons, and the data they used to make such decisions must back them up.   B)One of the things that is very surprising and rather concerning is that certain interest groups are already calling for change  from the new system it appears because it does not suit them ,and such a short time  after the new system that they called for was introduced.        C)When it comes to the issue of the handicapping system I believe its one issue where whats best for the trainer goes hand in hand with whats best for the owner.     D) bit tough. They are the type of blokes you would want in the trenches with you if you were fighting a war. Sounds like you share their passion,so best to cut them some slack. B)  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, LongOwner said:

B ) Not firm workable alternative

If that is the case then they all need to shut up.

Makes A, B and D a waste of time.

Makes the whole meeting a waste of time.

HRNZ should lock them in a room and tell them to come out when they have an alternative system which they agree on.

1 hour ago, what a post said:

Probably just an indication of the pressure many are under to survive in an industry they have such a passion for.

Well, venting with no purpose is a waste of time. Fix it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest

Great to see that the issue of the stupid 10 hits with the whip rule is going to be discussed with HRNZ!

Since the rule was brought in there has been approx. 100 drivers found guilty of excess hits.

This in itself will,have brought the whip to the attention of the Animal Rights groups where before they didn't give a toss about it here in NZ.

This is not good for harness so they need to get rid of the no. of 10 and go back to what is was before

a rule that was never approved by the Horsemen and brought in by someone that didn't think about the consequences!!!!!!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.