Future Of Jumps Racing Up For Discussion

[rdytdy 5,499]

 

Personally I love watching the jumps racing. Makes for a great spectacle in the winter.

NZTR to Consult on Future of Jumps Racing (loveracing.nz)

 

[blackcaviar56 112]

Sad sad day for real racing

Obviously they got rid of Ellerslie with the new plan of using Te Aroha which they F##### up, no Awapuni so let's take the easy way and just get rid of it and get these Pop up races going.

I understand they are having issues getting jockeys etc BUT

Racing is going to be worse off not having REAL HORSES like we have been blessed to watch  this jumping season with The Cossack, West Coast and Berry The Cash to name a few.

[Idolmite 3,396]

They might as well close up the gallops for 2-3 months every year if they're going to stop the jumpers. 

[Michael Roustoby 433]

It's up for discussion its not a funeral notice

This is not a time to lie down,it's the people's time to stand up and keep our game going 

I'll write them a letter at some stage and post it on here as well. 

My first question is those turn over figures.....are they a like for like figure (flat races in winter at 11am vs jumps or does it include the whole flat season)

Can't compare apples with jackfruit

 

In the mean time do as Donald says

[Michael Roustoby 433]

Just read the document and apparently it is a like for like comparison. Although we all know percentages can be manipulated to prove anything. 86% of people know that.

Document gives alot of pros about jumps racing. As long as the people stand up for the game I think common sense will prevail and we will continue.

 

[scooby3051 12,950]

The only thing this new TAB mob care about is turnover and that will be the biggest sticking point I feel if it cant make them money then that is mostly all they care about...JMO.

[THE TORCH 788]

The stats hes provided are ridiculous. Stats are like matches - put them in the hands of the wrong person and they're dangerous. 

So reducing the number of tracks will see the quality of racing improve (apparently!!!!!...and anyone who thought Messara's report was 100% his view actually needs their head read), but reducing jumping numbers wont??!! The top 5 races this winter have all been jumps races - fact. The quality has been great even with a reduction in runners. The trainers and owners have taken things into their own hands and resurrected jumps racing. You cant tell me the jocks we got from the UK were scouted by Bruce and Co. And there are more heading out here next year. If they'd put a few more penny's into jumping races there would be more horses being prepped for it because not every owner has a Crocetti or Orchestral.

[Michael Roustoby 433]

According to the Stats Turnover PER RACE has increased from 65.2K in 2013 to 91.2k in 2023 so we are going forward not backwards

[Michael Roustoby 433]

THE SURVEY 

 

 

Jumps Racing Consultation 2024

Have your say on the future of Jumps Racing in New Zealand. Feedback is due no later than 6 September.

Question Title

1. Full Name

 

Question Title

2. Role/Position

 

Question Title

3. Organisation

 

Question Title

4. Do you share the view of NZTR that doing nothing is not an option?

If no, why?

If yes, which option do you recommend and why?

Question Title

5. Are there other aspects of Jumps racing that have not been considered as part of the information provided in this consultation document?

 

Question Title

6. What are the three main considerations for the industry in making a decision on the future of Jumps racing? Rank these in order of importance.

Consideration #1

Consideration #2

Consideration #3

Question Title

7. Are you a current jumps participant across trainer, jockey, owner or breeder?

If yes, based on status quo is your level of investment or participation likely to change in the next 12 – 24 months?

If so, how?

If no, would you consider investment or participation going forward?

Question Title

8. Any further comments or suggestions

 

[Michael Roustoby 433]

My Response to the survey. I don't claim to have a mortgage on all the good ideas,im just a battling jump jockey and these are  just my thoughts/opinions. I'd encourage as many as possible to take the time to do the survey

 

1. Michael Roustoby
2. Jump Jockey
3. -
4.  No. our industry has been left behind while other parts of the industry have had millions of dollars thrown at them
5.  
6. I think Jump racing needs to be embraced in winter and more carnivals made. Australia has got behind jumping and its becoming more popular all the time. Warrnambool carnival etc. We need to create something similar. Flat racing where they are all heading to the outside fence in winter is boring,the open handicaps struggle to get 6 runners most of the time. we need something exciting. Nothing has been done to advertise jumping or attract punters or fans. There is no pathway to become a jump jockey. Your on your own. Some help would be great. Riddell is the jumps jockey coach or whatever......we dont see him.Nothing against him but we are in and out early in the day before he gets there. The jumps races have produced a great specatacle this season with some great finishes and horses like West Coast who is a maiden on the flat is a champion over jumps. 
7. NZ breds continue to dominate the Australian races. some sort of trans tasman challenge could be set up with them.
8. Our best tracks Paeroa,Ellerslie,Awapuni etc have all been pensioned off and Te Aroha has been a disaster. Turnover per race is on the rise by those figures so you could say things are looking up. More jockeys are coming and if we are given more certainty of the future more people would invest. The last couple of years the whispers have been we are done so people arent interested. 2yo racing was a non event 20 years ago. the Karaka million came in and now 2yo racing has gone gangbusters. Investment and advertising/hype around jumps to get people excited can help grow our game the same way. Not suggesting a million dollar race but a bit of hype and further investment can be a game changer.

6. Keeping horses in the game longer. How many 10//11yos are racing without jumps? none

The people. Jump racing keep skilled people in the industry and produces trainers,trackriders who ride the grubs

Entertainment/carnivals to keep winter racing exciting

 

7. Jockey . Continue to ride and myself and my partner Jen Mcilroy will get another jumper to train if the future is certain. We have had 3 in the past but havent reinvested due to the uncertainty 

 

8. Before hammering jumps racing look in your own backyard. How many people are employed in your offices and what money are they on? What value do they add? What expenses are drawn out of the racing coffers for trips/travel/junkets and are they neccesary?

We are just working class people,cheap horses can become heros in jump races. They cant all be expensive yearlings who win group 1s. The battlers get a go to race for glory. Maybe that aspect of the game should be further explored to get more owners who cant afford the big sydicates. Its the working class peoples game. Its can be the NZB Kiwi or Karaka Million every week.

Lets make jumps racing stronger to get people who cant afford big syndications into ownership

And also think of the excitment jumping brings and use that to make jumping carnivals and get fans to the races

 

Remember the turnover per race is going up not down according to your stats

 

And another thing to consider is You guys end jump racing. You end our careers,our passion,our livelyhood. And in 5 years time are you still going to be at NZTR or moved onto something else? Dont let your legacy be the people who ended the great game with a great tradition,be the people who revived it to Make Jumping Great again

 

It may not be easy but nothing thats easy is worth doing. Thats why your on the big bucks. I have faith in you and look forward to the changes you make to keep the game going

 

Once its gone its gone and Winter racing will be far poorer without it.

 

Michael

 

[Michael Roustoby 433]

*cant be the NZB kiwi or karaka million every week. 

[ivanthegreat 1,145]

HARD TO HAVE A PUNT ON THEM , NOT KNOWING WHAT WEIGHT PENALTIES WILL APPLY.

CLEARLY WHEN NO PENALTY LIKE ON SATURDAY ITS ALL GO ALTHOUGH ONE OF THOSE DID WIN BY DEFAULT AFTER  CONNECTIONS HAD OFFERED REASONS FOR NOT WINNING B4 RACE.

[racingoutsider 368]

1 hour ago, Michael Roustoby said:

According to the Stats Turnover PER RACE has increased from 65.2K in 2013 to 91.2k in 2023 so we are going forward not backwards

Given that, and the fact that the 2021 jumping plan was set to reduce jumper starting numbers, can we find out what the turnover per starter is compared to say winter flat races?

You also have to note that total jumping stakes have not increased from 10 years ago cf a substantial increase in total flat stakes.

I don't think the data presented is comparing apples with apples.

[Gezzah Potts 75]

I think it would be quite sad if jumps racing disappeared completely in New Zealand. From 5 years old I was going to the Riverton Easter races every year until I moved to Australia, and it was such a spectacle watching the Great Western Stepplechase and lesser events like the Waiau Stepplechase. Some wonderful horses from the past like Loch Linnhe, Enceeoh, Lord Venture, Ocean Guard, Sweeney Todd, Bell Flight, who graced South Island tracks. What about the horses that haven't got the speed for flat racing or those who are more adept in heavy winter going. What happens to them if the option of jumps racing isn't available anymore? Others on here have mentioned the very successful Warrnambool carnival and it should be mentioned that the Casterton club in Victoria also seems to be successful with its promotion of stepplechase events. Some really good comments on this thread. 

[THE TORCH 788]

4. Do you share the view of NZTR that doing nothing is not an option?

The two options contradict what this question poses. They aren't doing a thing. They're either leaving it "as it is" (and they've painted a false picture with their stats) or are going to shut it down. 

That is doing nothing! 

[racingoutsider 368]

2 hours ago, THE TORCH said:

4. Do you share the view of NZTR that doing nothing is not an option?

The two options contradict what this question poses. They aren't doing a thing. They're either leaving it "as it is" (and they've painted a false picture with their stats) or are going to shut it down. 

That is doing nothing! 

Exactly. They've offered two options. I certainly don't support either. One is to close down jumps racing, the other is to continue its steady demise without any significant investment or constructive action. As one of the few still racing a jumper in NZ, I probably won't even bother responding to the consultation given the distorted data and so called analysis that we've been provided to assist our consideration. Calling it a discussion is a joke and I certainly won't be racing another one if either of those options is proceeded with.

[Bimbo 813]

6 hours ago, Michael Roustoby said:

It's up for discussion its not a funeral notice

More than 9 times out of 10, when companies start calling meetings to discuss the possibility of redundancies, the decisions have already been made.  This is unlikely to be any different. 

[Pak Star 1,185]

11 minutes ago, Bimbo said:

More than 9 times out of 10, when companies start calling meetings to discuss the possibility of redundancies, the decisions have already been made.  This is unlikely to be any different. 

Was about to say the same and that the writing is probably on the wall, and this is just the usual box ticking exercise masquerading as something open for public discussion.  

The last of their consultation slides (and the last sentence on that slide) reads to me like their way of saying "we have thrown enough money at this via stakes, and its not got any better nor attracted new participants"... so we can get a sense as to where their mind is.  

Pound for pound I think we can admit they don't stand up as a financially viable product on their own BUT as a support card to the wider industry is where the value really is.  Older horses, heavier jockeys, a winter product etc etc. Its probably the best angle to take to save the industry.  The point I would make is - how on earth do they plan on putting a full card together on Saturday during winter without the jumps racing?  Take jumps races out of June this year and you are left with Saturday meetings that would have 5 or 6 races on the card.  I can't see how that is financially viable either...

Anyhow, I hope I am wrong.  

[barryb 2,150]

Comparing it to flat racing is irrelevant, it needs to be compared against its own performance yr on yr. 
Comparing 2yr old events to standard flat racing would show a similar piss poor return, is that up for discussion also?

Compare Sun v Sat would show equally lesser returns for any events, much jumping racing is on a Sunday compared to historically more Saturday events.

All racing before midday shows poorer returns compared to 3pm.

The base statement is mischievous & suits the closure plan without any real useful comparison.

Yes it needs investment & not in stakes, it needs a fresh new look at modern jumping fences etc. How about they go to entain with a clear plan to revive interest in offering a unique to jumps betting product, like a jumps jackpot. They squandered the money from Ellerslie on stakes without looking a why it’s failing, & again here they have offered not thoughts on revival. Any corporate governance team would be slaughtered if they did similar.

[racingoutsider 368]

6 hours ago, barryb said:

Comparing it to flat racing is irrelevant, it needs to be compared against its own performance yr on yr.

Exactly. And if you look at the data they have provided, the turnover per starter has gone from $7,749 in 2013 to $11,347 in 2023, a nearly 50% increase. That doesn't suggest any lack of wagering interest to me. Hopefully they will update the data to include FY24 which look to be solid, given those figures should be available as of publication of the consultation document.

[barryb 2,150]

There are 3 things that severely impact jumps racing.

1) Perceived risk with punting on them, ask at any TAB & many won’t be betting on them due to risk & often the very obvious short priced fav. 
2) The state of the jumps themselves, modernise them so they can be marketed better. They are an awful look like on Sat at Ric when jumping the man made fences a cloud of dust came off them, it communicates zero care from the industry.

3) Social licence, remove fences in the straight in the last round, many of us are growing tired of watching horses fall in the straight, it’s not a way to,promote the product. 

[racingoutsider 368]

3 hours ago, barryb said:

3) Social licence, remove fences in the straight in the last round, many of us are growing tired of watching horses fall in the straight, it’s not a way to,promote the product. 

And the whip use? An awful look in some of those races.

[Integrity101 81]

4 hours ago, racingoutsider said:

And the whip use? An awful look in some of those races.

Agree with this.

And then you have this jockey blatantly ignoring established safe guards for horse welfare, perhaps thinking the horse needed to be taught a jumping lesson?

The aggravating factors in this case, is that there was no doubt by anyone viewing the race, would see that TREATY OF PARIS was a spent force near the 600m after a faulty leap near the 800m and going from racing in a prominent position to last place, in a short period of time.

Further to this, the Adjudicative Committee finds that at the 3rd last fence, the horse was clearly detached from the field, clearly out of contention and fatigued. Mr McNeill opted to continue on jumping the 2nd last fence on an obviously tired horse, which should have been another clear signal that the horse was a spent force and retired from the event.

However, Mr McNeill continued on when well out of contention and detached from the field, opting to jump the last fence which nearly finished in disaster, as the horse made another faulty leap, nearly falling and losing Mr McNeill in the process. It was fortunate that neither Rider nor horse was injured.

Therefore, the Adjudicative Committee finds that Mr McNeil , a highly experienced Jumps Rider, has made a very poor judgement call on this occasion, by not retiring the horse after multiple signals that the horse was fatigued, out of contention and a spent force

[Pete Lane 1,337]

2 hours ago, Integrity101 said:

Agree with this.

And then you have this jockey blatantly ignoring established safe guards for horse welfare, perhaps thinking the horse needed to be taught a jumping lesson?

The aggravating factors in this case, is that there was no doubt by anyone viewing the race, would see that TREATY OF PARIS was a spent force near the 600m after a faulty leap near the 800m and going from racing in a prominent position to last place, in a short period of time.

Further to this, the Adjudicative Committee finds that at the 3rd last fence, the horse was clearly detached from the field, clearly out of contention and fatigued. Mr McNeill opted to continue on jumping the 2nd last fence on an obviously tired horse, which should have been another clear signal that the horse was a spent force and retired from the event.

However, Mr McNeill continued on when well out of contention and detached from the field, opting to jump the last fence which nearly finished in disaster, as the horse made another faulty leap, nearly falling and losing Mr McNeill in the process. It was fortunate that neither Rider nor horse was injured.

Therefore, the Adjudicative Committee finds that Mr McNeil , a highly experienced Jumps Rider, has made a very poor judgement call on this occasion, by not retiring the horse after multiple signals that the horse was fatigued, out of contention and a spent force

Yeah that was a horror to watch.

As an aside anyone who punted the horse to hot favourite on a heavy track had rocks in their head.

[barryb 2,150]

Suggested Solutions.

Every 2nd Sunday from May - Sept starting at 1pm conduct 6 jumps only races (or Am's if insufficient numbers) alternating between Northern & CD venues currently in use.

Modernise the jumps & make them transportable between the venues & look at the safety options used in the UK

Add a 6 race $50k pick6 jackpot that continues until struck at jumps only venues.

Add a buy in bonus programme for Jumpers, that incentivises owners, trainers & jockeys.

Safety, remove all fences in the last 400mtrs on the last round.

Promote jumper rehoming success stories better.