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Lance O'Sullivan

369 posts in this topic

21 minutes ago, crustyngrizzly said:

I have not seen or heard anything or in fact know anything to suggest that their defence would not be plausible in a court of law, but then i'm not an expert and certainly won't be called upon by any side as a witness.

Well, although I have little faith in the credibility of many areas in NZ racing including the RIU, I do have faith in the credibility of the JCA which has the ultimate power here, including the power to amend the information by substituting the alleged breach of one rule with that of another.

Hopefully, it will preserve the credibility of NZ racing's integrity by considering whether or not the story is as fantastic as it seems and either amend the charge or explain why they accept it is correct as it stands and legally sound.

They have certainly not been shy before about telling the RIU that they are being stupid and that a charge is inappropriate.

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52 minutes ago, 2Admin2 said:

Really Biff?  Didn't you get out of the "big town" but you bought an attitude with it.  You are spouting unsubstantiated clap trap without any understanding of the science.  Suggest you do some reading regarding cows and cobalt levels.

The attitude as you refer to, is present due to the apathy I've encountered since I left 'Big Town'.......you've already proved inept Admin accusing me of not reading correctly, ''Dairy cattle''......if you refer to the press release/statement you'll clearly see the referral to 'Dairy'........your loyalty to these people is now questionable, they are guilty already of gross stupidity, negligence, call it what you will, but any owner that tolerates that has shit for brains, and you can quote me.

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http://www.jca.org.nz/non-race-day-hearings/non-race-day-inquiry-riu-v-m-g-c-roberts-decision-dated-15-november-2012

Cases like the above highlight if you have the right 'name' you can get away with pretty much anything.

In the above case, anyone with half a brain knows a trainer wouldn't give a dog 3-4 slices of bread the night before a race, well not any trainer I have talked to anyway.

Likewise in this case I don't know a trainer who would put their derby prospect out in a paddock the day before a huge race, you would have to be an idiot right?

Are the R.I.U that incompetant they believe everything they are told, or are they in fact told themselves who they are to prosecute to the full extent and who not to?

I am certain that if it had been Joe Bloggs from Hicksville that had trained Sound Proposition this would have been wrapped up months and months ago and he would have been dragged over the coals and made an example of.

We shouldn't be surprised though as in all aspects of life there are certain rules for some, and then different rules for others.

And the sad thing is many times once they know they can (and will) get away with things they will keep on doing it.

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1 hour ago, WhoKnows said:

http://www.jca.org.nz/non-race-day-hearings/non-race-day-inquiry-riu-v-m-g-c-roberts-decision-dated-15-november-2012

Cases like the above highlight if you have the right 'name' you can get away with pretty much anything.

In the above case, anyone with half a brain knows a trainer wouldn't give a dog 3-4 slices of bread the night before a race, well not any trainer I have talked to anyway.

Likewise in this case I don't know a trainer who would put their derby prospect out in a paddock the day before a huge race, you would have to be an idiot right?

Are the R.I.U that incompetant they believe everything they are told, or are they in fact told themselves who they are to prosecute to the full extent and who not to?

I am certain that if it had been Joe Bloggs from Hicksville that had trained Sound Proposition this would have been wrapped up months and months ago and he would have been dragged over the coals and made an example of.

We shouldn't be surprised though as in all aspects of life there are certain rules for some, and then different rules for others.

And the sad thing is many times once they know they can (and will) get away with things they will keep on doing it.

Very well said. If it had been a trainer without two dollars to rub together, this would have been done and dusted, broke trainer serving his disqualification. Unfortunately dealing with people who have all the top lawyers on speed dial, makes one cautious. Have the staff been asked if Sound Proposition was paddock housed 24 hours before the derby? Reading the information out of Australia regarding their cases, for horses to have levels such as those, the cobalt must have entered the system within the last 24 hours before the race. Do Wexford run such a relaxed casual system allowing their Derby runners to roam cattle paddocks drinking whatever from where ever, or are they simply lieing. Maybe all the Lance lovers might like to consider he is trying so hard to be like Dad and brother, well have some of their success by whatever means it takes. 

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5 hours ago, Leggy said:

I heard a couple of them haven't been milked since. Evidently can outrun the cattle dog.

While not as precise as I'd like, it's certainly a clever and effective administration method, especially if you can then convince the RIU that it's not an administration method and it was all an unfortunate accident. I somehow doubt the Oz stewards would be quite so easily convinced.

Possibly they should have been aware of this when Kiwi won the Melbourne Cup seeing as he was a horse off the farm...maybe a posthumous investigation into whether Kiwi had indeed shared a trough with cobalt deficient livestock...Lupton's were way ahead of the game!

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Leggy I too have faith that the JCA will see through this ineptly stitched up sweetheart deal between the RIU and Wexford.I hope that the JCA will PRESENT a rocket to the RIU and advise them that all participants in our once marvellous industry are too be treated the same.

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Just to bring this back to reality.

There seems to be a consensus that the RIU investigators haven't taken appropriate samples, or searched the stable in question, scrutinized drug regimes and veterinary records associated with the three horses, that type of thing.

I doubt that'd be the case, these guys have a fairly routine modus operandi in this situation and gathering evidence would be the very first step wouldn't it ?

You don't need to extend that logic far to presume they found nothing that indicated the defendants version of events was unreasonable, and equally nothing to suggest any nefarious activity had taken place, no samples, no rogue staff, no catheters or infusion apparatus, no ( dare I say it ) cobalt, no records of buying any such items, not even a pair of rubber gloves that glow in the dark.

Just thinking out loud here and trying to be fair minded, and I accept that the majority find that totally unreasonable.

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I don't have anything against Andrew Scott and Lance Armstrong I find them really nice, friendly people but it does seem pretty obvious to most people that they stuffed up and got caught. No need to insult the intelligence of the public just take ownership of your stuff ups and take it on the chin.

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17 hours ago, biff said:

The attitude as you refer to, is present due to the apathy I've encountered since I left 'Big Town'.......you've already proved inept Admin accusing me of not reading correctly, ''Dairy cattle''......if you refer to the press release/statement you'll clearly see the referral to 'Dairy'........your loyalty to these people is now questionable, they are guilty already of gross stupidity, negligence, call it what you will, but any owner that tolerates that has shit for brains, and you can quote me.

Biff - inept I maybe however there is no mention that these "dairy cattle" were being milked.   You started flying wild outcomes not based on science or fact but based on what seems a purely irrational response to the laying of charges.  The fact is the reason given for the high levels of cobalt in swabbed horses has been proven to be entirely plausible.  Now you can refuse to accept that based on wink wink nudge nudge there must be more - that's fine you are entitled to do that.  However as I've suggested to you it would be worth your while to do some research on cobalt feed supplements in livestock.

It is fair to say that the non-provision of supplementary cobalt to animals grazing New Zealand's cobalt deficient soils would be deemed as poor husbandry bordering on neglect.  It certainly wouldn't help milk production.

An interesting conclusion was found by the European Food Safety Authority (EFSA) investigation into the safety and efficacy of cobalt supplements.  To quote:  "Correlations between cobalt/vitamin B12 intake at physiological feed concentrations and tissue deposition as cobalt(II)/cobalt(III) could not be established owing to lack of data. Any prediction of the cobalt content of food of animal origin from dietary cobalt is therefore not possible at present."

 

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5 minutes ago, Canelo said:

I don't have anything against Andrew Scott and Lance Armstrong I find them really nice, friendly people but it does seem pretty obvious to most people that they stuffed up and got caught. No need to insult the intelligence of the public just take ownership of your stuff ups and take it on the chin.

Lance Armstrong?

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1 minute ago, Brodie said:

Lance Armstrong?

That's either a subtle attempt at humour or a Freudian slip!

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Admin, a qualified vet I'm not, but I do know enough about cobalt having mixed with the trotting fraternity in Sydney for some time, I also base my attack on the fact after all this time this is the excuse. I didn't come down in the last shower, nor did most on here, it's not like this stable, or one of them is Goldylocks either, I've done as much reading on cobalt [that time will permit me] to enhance the knowledge I had from [previous].........the red hots in Oz are far in front re this, always have been, since the Vinnie Knight days, and unfortunately Admin, I'll go to my grave not believing this. My business partner or one of them is a compounding chemist from a previous life, a bit like Bjorn you might say, and he doubled up with laughter when he read this.....translated into Espanol as it was.......many countries in Latin America are third world and yet when I chat to our contacts there they are astounded by what goes on here in NZ, as they perceive little old Godzone to be a 1st world leader in food and agriculture. Their take on this is proving comical to say the least, and no doubt it's proving comical to the majority here in NZ also. At the very least both of them should get a holiday and fine Admin, and seek help from professionals that might cure their stupidity for running dairy cattle and a maybe milk producer herd with a number of fancied racing stock and ask said racing stock to share a trough of water/cobalt infusion. I don't know what's worse Admin, the sheer stupidity of it all or the conceit.

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How many of the other horses in their stable had access to this 'blue' water?

What were the readings of the frozen swabs the RIU would have tested?

If you had a horse that was going to be running in the derby, surely days leading up to the race you wouldn't let it run around in a paddock?? I'm no horse trainer but I can imagine you wouldn't want a horse free galloping and exerting energy before they want it to 'peak'.

 

We could have a different thread on the best excuses used when cheats have been caught, Contador and his tainted steak, the tennis player that tested positive to cocaine because he kissed a girl at a night club, Moody and his hoof powder, the greyhound trainer that got off an a-class positive swab because someone touched his dog after the race, and now we have horses drinking blue water and running the races of their lives! Oh boy what a world we live in. 

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Clenbuterol for Contador.

Dogs had a similar case here with procaine penicillin residue in meat.

It's all about possibility v. probability Gonsta and if you refuse to open your mind to that dimension you're a fool.

 

Biff, but which cobalt are we talking about, VB12 water soluble with a six hour half life, or the cobalt salt that accumulates and affects the heart, liver, muscle tissue, even the spine.

Clearly the relationship between when the cattle had exposure to the cobalt versus when they raced is inextricably hung on ascertaining first what type of cobalt it might be, and that cannot be done as far as I know.

I'd have thought it might be plausible to argue exposure to cobalt salt in solution weeks before might still result in elevated readings, but as I reiterate I don't know because this science is very much a work in progress.

Grazing your horses for a few hours a day in a nice paddock, also used by cattle, after their last race and during the recovery phase, and weeks before their next race, is very much a NZ thing you know, and that's what makes us unique.

 

Just putting my fair and reasonable hat on again mate, and apologies again to the conspirators baying for blood if facts and common sense undermine their theories.

 

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35 minutes ago, GONSTA said:

How many of the other horses in their stable had access to this 'blue' water?

What were the readings of the frozen swabs the RIU would have tested?

If you had a horse that was going to be running in the derby, surely days leading up to the race you wouldn't let it run around in a paddock?? I'm no horse trainer but I can imagine you wouldn't want a horse free galloping and exerting energy before they want it to 'peak'.

 

We could have a different thread on the best excuses used when cheats have been caught, Contador and his tainted steak, the tennis player that tested positive to cocaine because he kissed a girl at a night club, Moody and his hoof powder, the greyhound trainer that got off an a-class positive swab because someone touched his dog after the race, and now we have horses drinking blue water and running the races of their lives! Oh boy what a world we live in. 

Gonsta - I've seen countless trainers give their horses paddock time before and after races regardless of what type of race it is or was.  It has long been a tradition in New Zealand and in my opinion makes for a happier horse.  Indeed some horses have only ever been paddock trained - i.e. they spend neglible time in a stable or stall and spend most of their life in a paddock whether they are in training or not.  I'm sure some of the posters on this website will give you some examples.

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Guest 2Admin2

A reminder to all posters - it is OK to have an opinion on this case but be very careful when you start calling the trainers "cheats" - under the charge that they are being charged on they are not being accused of deliberating administering a substance to improve the performance of their horses.

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