Treaty Principles Bill

[tripple alliance 1,215]

E MAIL From National , they must be getting nervous about the public support this bill has .

The Treaty Principles Bill had its first reading in Parliament today and – while National’s opposition to it has been clear for a long time – I’d like to explain the wider context for our position.

During coalition negotiations, National and Act agreed that the Government would support the Bill’s first reading to allow it to go through the select committee process, but that National would not support it at its second reading. Therefore, it will not become law.

To be clear, this is a result neither National nor Act are entirely happy with. Act doesn’t get the referendum on the Treaty Principles it wanted, and National is required to vote for a Bill it does not support and has never supported. But National was delivered a mandate to form government at the election and the nature of our MMP system means compromises like this are necessary. As National’s spokesperson for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations, some people have asked me for more information about our long-standing opposition to this Bill.

Over many decades New Zealand has grappled with how to deal with the Treaty. While we don’t always agree, successive National Governments have worked well with Māori on Treaty issues while ensuring equal citizenship and equal opportunity for all New Zealanders.

The challenges of the Treaty are complex and it is not realistic to suggest that 184 years of debate would be settled once and for all with the stroke of a pen. It’s too blunt and simplistic, and risks stoking grievance and driving division.

National takes the more difficult but more realistic and practical approach – working together through Treaty issues on a case-by-case basis, including:

• The reversal of a number of divisive co-governance policies from the Labour Government that would have contributed to worse economic, social and regulatory outcomes - like Three Waters and the Māori Health Authority ,   Instructing Government agencies to deliver public services on the basis of needs – and working with credible Iwi and other providers where specific needs exist among Māori and other communities , Progressing Treaty Settlements to address historical wrongdoings
• Restoring the rights of communities to determine whether to introduce Māori wards, after Labour denied local constituents the opportunity to do this.

Nobody is saying any government’s approach to the Treaty is perfect – it is something our entire country has grappled with over almost two centuries of debate.

Ultimately National’s focus and motivation is to improve outcomes for Māori and non-Māori, by rebuilding the economy, restoring law and order, and delivering better public services.

This Bill doesn’t help any of that. Read my full speech here.  Paul Goldsmith .

Reply .

NOW Paul the problem you have is this proposed legislation will not alter the treaty in anyway but it will put the brakes on the gravy train , principles were invented in 1975 NOTHING TO DO WITH 184 YEARS AGO .

What are the existing Treaty Principles and where do they come from?

The concept of ‘Treaty principles’ was introduced by the Treaty of Waitangi Act 1975, but the principles were not defined. Since then, the Courts and forums such as the Waitangi Tribunal have developed the understanding and meaning of the Treaty principles.

IN other words an endless industry .

[Uriah Heap 499]

The Treaty of Waiting principles might not be clearly defined and up for continuing debate, but the last person you want defining them is David Seymour.

He's one smug prick, pandering to his 8% voter base and now he's stirred up a hornets nest. 

No one will end up happy and the country will be more divided.

[scooby3051 12,356]

34 minutes ago, Uriah Heap said:

The Treaty of Waiting principles might not be clearly defined and up for continuing debate, but the last person you want defining them is David Seymour.

He's one smug prick, pandering to his 8% voter base and now he's stirred up a hornets nest. 

No one will end up happy and the country will be more divided.

So he is wrong for standing up for what he believes is right...but Te Pati Maori is ok to stir things up for their 10% of the population...how is your reasoning fair...the country should be the same for all we are ALL New Zealanders after all...but thats just the way I feel personally and each to their own.

[Ohokaman 6,313]

Apirana Ngata knew more than any of these fuckwits trying to change history.

Those last words in the foreword the Maoris might want to think about.

 

[Ohokaman 6,313]

Thrown out of Parliament…the disrespect these people show is unbelievable. Should never be near the place.

 

[brownie 17]

28 minutes ago, Ohokaman said:

Thrown out of Parliament…the disrespect these people show is unbelievable. Should never be near the place.

 

once upon a time we had hospital's  for people like this, WTF 

[Basil brush 248]

Love the Irony that your tag is Brownie

[Lee270744 755]

They are living proof the Lunatic Asylums are closed.

[tripple alliance 1,215]

Have a look at Andrew Bolt in Ausse , hope the link works .

https://youtu.be/_YjoF8REzb8?si=nQ6rqSqXo2qyjtf2

[Ohokaman 6,313]

16 hours ago, tripple alliance said:

Have a look at Andrew Bolt in Ausse , hope the link works .

https://youtu.be/_YjoF8REzb8?si=nQ6rqSqXo2qyjtf2

They talk sense…but that’s what happens when you let clowns like her into Parliament. 

[bloke 1,291]

23 hours ago, Ohokaman said:

They talk sense…but that’s what happens when you let clowns like her into Parliament. 

Really? Sky News is the Aussie version of Fox News and has faced accusations of making up stories. Why would we listen to Aussies when it comes to race relations given their appalling treatment of Aboriginals.

Kiwis are happy for the Haka to be performed prior to All Black games, Team NZ America's Cup races and school graduations so there is no better place to perform the Haka than Parliament to perform it as this is supposed to be the bastion of democracy. 

The problem with right wingers is that they go on about free speech but when they don't agree with others, they cry foul and want it banned.

[Ohokaman 6,313]

5 hours ago, bloke said:

Really? Sky News is the Aussie version of Fox News and has faced accusations of making up stories. Why would we listen to Aussies when it comes to race relations given their appalling treatment of Aboriginals.

Kiwis are happy for the Haka to be performed prior to All Black games, Team NZ America's Cup races and school graduations so there is no better place to perform the Haka than Parliament to perform it as this is supposed to be the bastion of democracy. 

The problem with right wingers is that they go on about free speech but when they don't agree with others, they cry foul and want it banned.

What a lot of crap. “Tribal thuggery under the cloak of culture”…..that’s exactly what it was/is. 
“The only way I know how as a Maori…”  she says…fuck me, how do these people get within a 100 miles of Parliament ?
 

I’m sick to death of this minority constantly going on about things stolen, being downtrodden, deprived, having no rights and all the other Treaty bullshit.

Successive Governments have paid billions of dollars to tribes up and down this country, yet the numbers tell you it has not filtered down to the people that need help and assistance most. They want to ask their “leaders” where the money has gone, but they might not like the answers.

Sitting down and discussing/debating the issues is clearly beyond them. Dressing up and acting tough is much easier.

[tripple alliance 1,215]

6 hours ago, bloke said:

Really? Sky News is the Aussie version of Fox News and has faced accusations of making up stories. Why would we listen to Aussies when it comes to race relations given their appalling treatment of Aboriginals.

Kiwis are happy for the Haka to be performed prior to All Black games, Team NZ America's Cup races and school graduations so there is no better place to perform the Haka than Parliament to perform it as this is supposed to be the bastion of democracy. 

The problem with right wingers is that they go on about free speech but when they don't agree with others, they cry foul and want it banned.

Bloke at least try to understand what's happening here , the over kill of the use of the Haka is just an attempt to rebrand NZ just like the renaming of the country and towns and provinces , ok if you ask the population but just like the principles bill they are scared of the result so don't want questions asked  .The opposition to the  bill is deceitful , there is nothing wrong with the bill itself but what it does do is put a lid on the grievance gravy train . What happens to those with their snouts in the trough when all treaty claims are concluded , the end of a big paying industry and that's the real underlying issue , if these people are no longer allowed to invent principals  it will one day end . 

in Ausse they have endless welcome to country ceremony's , another not so subtle way of claiming a country . Now parliament , its totally disrespectful to do what has been done , the British system of parliamentary democracy is what Māori signed up to in 1840 and they signed up for good reason , the brits stopped much of the tribal warfare and cannibalism which created a growth in Maori numbers .

ex wiki,  The Māori practiced cannibalism on enemies, or members of other tribes and hapuu, as an act of revenge. This practice was called exo-cannibalism, and was considered a way to humiliate and degrade the enemy. The Māori would also dig up and eat the bodies of enemies who had died from other causes, a practice known as kai pirau

[Ohokaman 6,313]

Winston gets upset…..

 

[Uriah Heap 499]

20 hours ago, tripple alliance said:

 the British system of parliamentary democracy is what Māori signed up to in 1840 and they signed up for good reason , the brits stopped much of the tribal warfare and cannibalism which created a growth in Maori numbers .

ex wiki,  The Māori practiced cannibalism on enemies, or members of other tribes and hapuu, as an act of revenge. This practice was called exo-cannibalism, and was considered a way to humiliate and degrade the enemy. The Māori would also dig up and eat the bodies of enemies who had died from other causes, a practice known as kai pirau

 

 

I think you'll find it was conversion to Christianity which saw the practice of cannabilism cease, and not Maori signing up to  'the British system of parliamentary democracy'

[Lee270744 755]

Really? Sky News is the Aussie version of Fox News and has faced accusations of making up stories. Why would we listen to Aussies when it comes to race relations given their appalling treatment of Aboriginals.

Do you think 80 Billion Dollars a year for Aboriginals would be better treatment than the 40 Billion Dollars of taxpayer's money they get every year now?

Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders represent 3.2% of the population.

How much do people who identify as Māori get of taxpayer's money?

[tripple alliance 1,215]

Beyond Cringe , Have a look takes about 20 mins .

 

[Nerula 1,484]

 

[Uriah Heap 499]

David Seymour is hyped up; crowing on about the influence he and his party has in the current  Govt. Mr Luxon disagrees and likely a few others do also.

'Pride comes before the fall,' David.

[mikenz 1,244]

On 11/26/2024 at 10:39 AM, Uriah Heap said:

David Seymour is hyped up; crowing on about the influence he and his party has in the current  Govt. Mr Luxon disagrees and likely a few others do also.

'Pride comes before the fall,' David.

Maybe Seymour should have made it a condition going jnto coalition talks that the bill is passed, Lixon may have taken more notice then.

Maybe then  the silent majority would stand up.

[Maximus 674]

Max was fascinated to learn today of the Debbie Ngarewa-Packer i/v (Jack Tame) nonsense,  asserting that as a Maori she has "more obligations" than non-Maori New Zealanders. Would love to know specifically what those  "more obligations" consist of.
The more 'middle New Zealand' indulge this garbage the more emboldened the radical left will get.
IMO Seymour/ACT has every right to table the Treaty Principles Bill in Parliament - the highest court in our land - for open, robust, considered discussion and decision-making via due legislative process. It may or may not ever get to public referendum.
It is the same 'quirk of MMP' entitling ACT to table such ideas (even if that means a perception by opponents of 'undue influence") as TPM have to oppose it. That's the system we voted in via public referendum in the 1990s. 
The same quirk allows the new Green MP (Doyle) to be given time on the House asserting his points of view.

But when any party no longer abides by the rules of debate and protocol in the House, action needs to be taken to keep behaviour from getting further out of hand. Come in, Mr Speaker. Is threatening/intimidating behaviour allowed inside the House? Ms Genter didnt get away with it, so ...

[bloke 1,291]

On 11/20/2024 at 5:31 PM, Ohokaman said:

What a lot of crap. “Tribal thuggery under the cloak of culture”…..that’s exactly what it was/is. 
“The only way I know how as a Maori…”  she says…fuck me, how do these people get within a 100 miles of Parliament ?
 

I’m sick to death of this minority constantly going on about things stolen, being downtrodden, deprived, having no rights and all the other Treaty bullshit.

Successive Governments have paid billions of dollars to tribes up and down this country, yet the numbers tell you it has not filtered down to the people that need help and assistance most. They want to ask their “leaders” where the money has gone, but they might not like the answers.

Sitting down and discussing/debating the issues is clearly beyond them. Dressing up and acting tough is much easier.

Let me remind you that in 1840 Iwi gifted 3,000 acres of Central  Auckland land to the crown. Chances are that Seymour, Luxon and Peters know live on that land. When you take into account that Ellerslie sold The Hill for approx. $160M and calculate over 3,000 acres this come to $31Billion in today's terms.

Waitangi tribunal's payouts are about $2 Billion which is petty cash in relation to the true value of the land that was taken. Iwi has been very generous over the years donating land and they lost a massive amount of land in the second world war under the Public Works Act. Ohoka you are from Kapiti, well they took the Paraparaumu Airport and this has yet to given back or compensated for and if and when they do I doubt if they will get anywhere true value.

Bastion Point was taken under The Act and Muldoon had protestors arrested when they wanted their land back.  I could go indefinitely but what it boils down to with you and some others on here is that you are a "Māori Hater" as simple as that but of course the problem with and your ilk is that you will never admit it.

 

[Ohokaman 6,313]

1 hour ago, bloke said:

Let me remind you that in 1840 Iwi gifted 3,000 acres of Central  Auckland land to the crown. Chances are that Seymour, Luxon and Peters know live on that land. When you take into account that Ellerslie sold The Hill for approx. $160M and calculate over 3,000 acres this come to $31Billion in today's terms.

Waitangi tribunal's payouts are about $2 Billion which is petty cash in relation to the true value of the land that was taken. Iwi has been very generous over the years donating land and they lost a massive amount of land in the second world war under the Public Works Act. Ohoka you are from Kapiti, well they took the Paraparaumu Airport and this has yet to given back or compensated for and if and when they do I doubt if they will get anywhere true value.

Bastion Point was taken under The Act and Muldoon had protestors arrested when they wanted their land back.  I could go indefinitely but what it boils down to with you and some others on here is that you are a "Māori Hater" as simple as that but of course the problem with and your ilk is that you will never admit it.

 

Equating todays values to 1840 ?  Over 500 Chiefs were perfectly happy to sign the treaty and all that entailed.

It has since been hijacked by a minority for their own ends and someone needs to step up and say “enough”.

Most Maoris I know are decent folk who don’t agree with a lot of what is going on.

They would just like some of the largesse paid out to filter down to those that need it, but are not holding their breath on that.

And the white man is the bad guy eh…..?

[Maximus 674]

My understanding is that .one of the principal reasons for the Treaty signing was Maori tribes' fear that they would be wiped out completely if the French or Portuguese took control of this land. Maori sought, and were promised receipt of, the Queen's 'protection'.

[Idolmite 3,159]

33 minutes ago, Maximus said:

My understanding is that .one of the principal reasons for the Treaty signing was Maori tribes' fear that they would be wiped out completely if the French or Portuguese took control of this land. Maori sought, and were promised receipt of, the Queen's 'protection'.

And if not by the likes of the French, who already had a presence, then at the hands of each other. Why the tribes had to slaughter each other when they had a country the size of New Zealand to settle in I'll never understand.