gazza123

box seat ,debate on blood spinning

152 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, frankie said:

If there’s no vet on the show I wonder if it was possible to find one who was truely objective. They all take the same view as their collective masters, HRNZ. 

Are you really trying to imply that all NZ vets are not objective on this issue-- prove it as what you wrote is clearly nonsense

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Well guys, the Vet on the Boxseat last night pretty much killed all the rubbish said about Blood Spinnin etc dead, and confirmed what Lee has been sayin in here all along.....so can we now put it to rest? :rolleyes:

 

Cheers Iraklis

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37 minutes ago, frankie said:

It’s an animal welfare issue and because of that it should be banned. As for any vet ever been objective - I haven’t met one yet. 

Look your making a bigger idiot of yourself with posts like this. They had a retired  and most respected Vet with no ties to HRNZ or RIU who told it as it is . Its not illegal and even someone with an IQ of 20 could understand his explanations and answers to GO's questions.  A look back at all your posts suggest you have some major issues with a certain stable and other bodies of influence.

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On 5/4/2019 at 9:54 AM, MalcolmH said:

Whilst it is good that the discussion is to take place it will amount to nothing. The first thing that does need to happen is that Mick Guerin needs to disqualify himself from the segment as he is well known to be biased towards a certain stable. The second thing that needs to be done is to get a Vet who is not associated with the industry (or participants) to give facts either for or against. Integrity needs to be shown by all involved in this segment or it will amount to nothing but a charade. Too many big players are involved in ACS and they won't want to see it stopped.

IMHO I believe it should be stopped until the facts have been proven as to the welfare of the horse and the legality of it are proven. The sport at the top level is haemoraging which is affecting those at the grass roots who love the industry but don't have the money to compete on the same level. It is also affecting the perception of the sport by the bread and butter people - the punters. Welfare of the horse followed by integrity of the sport have be at the forefront of any discussion.

So given above were you happy with TBS's handling of the ACS issue

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3 minutes ago, Fartoomuch said:

Look your making a bigger idiot of yourself with posts like this. They had a retired  and most respected Vet with no ties to HRNZ or RIU who told it as it is . Its not illegal and even someone with an IQ of 20 could understand his explanations and answers to GO's questions.  A look back at all your posts suggest you have some major issues with a certain stable and other bodies of influence.

the vet implied it was to treat injuries which is how they sold it to RIU and yes we have used PRP (and shockwave) to treat an out of work and badly injured racehorse but how do horses at the peak of their performance need treatment as Bill Bishop said to remain at 100%.

Given this quote on the facebook page all horses in the stable must be being treated whether they need it or not and in that is the animal welfare issue.

 All Stars Stable are amazing. 7 winners from 8 races contested on their premier day including trifectas and Quinellas. Awesome win by Vincent in the Auckland Cup. 
Great to see results from Equine Blood Solutions NZ

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EnTB, mate the vet didn't imply, he confirmed that's what treatment is for, and it was not 'sold' to RIU, the guy (from RIU) even confirmed they looked into it thoroughly; point is all those 'theories' that are circulatin are rubbish! and if you watched programme and interviews, you'll understand why it isn't an animal welfare issue either, unless you call treatin an animal with it's own blood to heal itself maltreatment, come on :rolleyes:

 

Cheers Iraklis

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2 hours ago, enteebee said:

the vet implied it was to treat injuries which is how they sold it to RIU and yes we have used PRP (and shockwave) to treat an out of work and badly injured racehorse but how do horses at the peak of their performance need treatment as Bill Bishop said to remain at 100%.

Given this quote on the facebook page all horses in the stable must be being treated whether they need it or not and in that is the animal welfare issue.

 All Stars Stable are amazing. 7 winners from 8 races contested on their premier day including trifectas and Quinellas. Awesome win by Vincent in the Auckland Cup. 
Great to see results from Equine Blood Solutions NZ

To be expected from the president of the anti All Stars group..... 

Neil, give Mark Purdon a ring and ask him how many horses in his stable have had the treatment, I think you'll be shocked at his answer. 

 

EDIT: 

Oh wait, that's right - you hide behind your keyboard like a few of your other mates and throw barbs around and imply absolute rubbish but when faced with the opportunity to speak to some of the people you like to defame and bully online you turn bright red and can't lift your head to look them in the eye. 

 

 

 

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Having dealt with many vets over many years I can assure you 99% of them gravitate towards two things - what the client demands, and where the money is. Finding a truly "independent" vet with no vested interests, and purely interested in animal health is near impossible.

That said, it's a tricky road they tread - equine health and equine performance are bound to conflict at some point.

The latest fad, Autologous Conditioned Serum, is just another way of blurring the boundary between the two goals. As an injury treatment it has many justifiable uses. As a racing treatment it has only one purpose - to disguise pain and artificially sustain performance.

The company's own literature promote it as having an "overall anti-inflammatory and pain-blocking response throughout the body".

It's one and only purpose in a racing horse is to over-ride the bodies warning signs (pain and inflammation) and allow the horse to perform beyond the level it would have without the treatment.

Once the bodies warning signs are ignored, horses (particularly good ones) push themselves to an unnatural level - eventually causing further injury and/or breaking down.

Who is using this treatment and where the good horses are breaking down would make for interesting reading. Certainly more interesting than a choreographed PR exercise on The Box Seat!

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2 hours ago, Counter Punch said:

To be expected from the president of the anti All Stars group..... 

Neil, give Mark Purdon a ring and ask him how many horses in his stable have had the treatment, I think you'll be shocked at his answer. 

 

EDIT: 

Oh wait, that's right - you hide behind your keyboard like a few of your other mates and throw barbs around and imply absolute rubbish but when faced with the opportunity to speak to some of the people you like to defame and bully online you turn bright red and can't lift your head to look them in the eye. 

 

 

 

You beat me to it Matt. Neil has some serious issues with a certain stable and he is not alone. Not even independent facts from others will sway his type so dont waste your time on him and his ilk

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2 hours ago, JackSprat said:

Having dealt with many vets over many years I can assure you 99% of them gravitate towards two things - what the client demands, and where the money is. Finding a truly "independent" vet with no vested interests, and purely interested in animal health is near impossible.

That said, it's a tricky road they tread - equine health and equine performance are bound to conflict at some point.

The latest fad, Autologous Conditioned Serum, is just another way of blurring the boundary between the two goals. As an injury treatment it has many justifiable uses. As a racing treatment it has only one purpose - to disguise pain and artificially sustain performance.

The company's own literature promote it as having an "overall anti-inflammatory and pain-blocking response throughout the body".

It's one and only purpose in a racing horse is to over-ride the bodies warning signs (pain and inflammation) and allow the horse to perform beyond the level it would have without the treatment.

Once the bodies warning signs are ignored, horses (particularly good ones) push themselves to an unnatural level - eventually causing further injury and/or breaking down.

Who is using this treatment and where the good horses are breaking down would make for interesting reading. Certainly more interesting than a choreographed PR exercise on The Box Seat!

Im sure Bill Bishop would be more than happy to lay out his credentials against some no name keyboard warrior such as yourself. As i said to Counter Punch, your type will never change your minds no matter how much credible evidence is presented to you. Accepted by racing jurisdiction world wide , even WADA and its not good enough for some people.

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I take it you're familiar with the terms "vested interests", propaganda", "commercial gain", and "overall anti-inflammatory and pain-blocking response throughout the body"?

Accepted by racing jurisdictions world wide? Really!

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Hard to win. well researched and still the flat earthers go off. The surprise will be how few of marks have used it.

 

 

That will send the anti all stars scurrying to their 

Hiding places.

 

 

 

 

it.another vet next week.lets bag her too.the red blood cells are removed so that has rooted all the blood doping theories.the riu are happy.they must be in on the Rort .I'm getting some for sure because it is good for some horses.too right it's an animal welfare issue..shows how much we care about them

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24 minutes ago, JackSprat said:

I take it you're familiar with the terms "vested interests", propaganda", "commercial gain", and "overall anti-inflammatory and pain-blocking response throughout the body"?

Accepted by racing jurisdictions world wide? Really!

Go and watch the interview. As for above, what is your vested interest and how much propaganda can you preach on one subject. Plenty by the looks of your replies and comments on this subject but hey lets not let the facts get in the way of a good conspiracy theory.  You keep thinking the way you do and that's fine by me , we live in a democracy and Scoobie provides a forum for all to have a say

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23 minutes ago, tim vince said:

Hard to win. well researched and still the flat earthers go off. The surprise will be how few of marks have used it.

 

 

That will send the anti all stars scurrying to their 

Hiding places.

 

 

 

 

it.another vet next week.lets bag her too.the red blood cells are removed so that has rooted all the blood doping theories.the riu are happy.they must be in on the Rort .I'm getting some for sure because it is good for some horses.too right it's an animal welfare issue..shows how much we care about them

Love it , your a clever man Tim. BTW , im sure you will find if you wanted to enquire  that many trainers over the years have been using this legal process yet no one ever mentions them.  I bet they feel left out.:rcfe-happy-1:

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I guess if you can't counter the issues being raised with a logic argument (and not one of the comments since my original post has) then Plan B as always is to write the alternate views off as being those of "AS haters" or "conspiracy theorists"!

If it helps you to validate yourself then go your hardest, but I'm yet to hear a single reason - other than for performance enhancement - as to why a fit and healthy racehorse needs an "overall anti-inflammatory and pain-blocking response throughout the body".

The Box Seat has the odd good human interest story, but the bottom line is that it's nothing more than a PR vehicle for the TAB and HRNZ. Anyone expecting them to actually paint either of their masters in a poor light is busy at the moment trying to catch the leprechaun at the end of the rainbow!

Open minds, closed minds, blind leading the blind, sheep and all that sort of thing.

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Jack, for cryin down the fricken drainpipe, it aint a anti-inflammatory nor is it for blocking pain in a horse! it's purely to help speed the healin (by using the horses own enzymes produced already in its own blood) of said injury whatever it maybe! before you go off on your little tangent watch the frickn programme and see for yourself! no one who watched BoxSeat on the article can be under any further illusions as to what blood spinnin is all about, come on.....I spose though its hard when a long held misconception of a certain proceedure gets shot out the water for all to see, to let the matter simply drop! expand your mind mate watch the programme.....

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Not anti-inflammatory or pain blocking? You're kidding right?

The company website claims otherwise....

How can I administer ACS?

1)Intra-articular (IA) injection – For the treatment of degenerated sore and/or injured joints. ACS’s potent anti-inflammatory and repair properties allow for immediate relief to inflamed/injured joints through regenerative proteins in the serum.

2)Intravenously (IV) – For an overall anti-inflammatory and pain-blocking response throughout the body. For an elite performance horse this form of administration is extremely beneficial and with no anaphylactic response.

3)Nebulized through the EBS’s MPTS360 – For regeneration of the air space to the lungs and airways to the respiratory system and has a dual action as it also goes directly to the blood stream.

4)Intramuscularly – Used with dual action acupuncture or without acupuncture points and also in physiotheraphy.

 

I you want to know what this stuff really does read this instead of being taken in by the Box Seat rubbish which was pure PR spin!

http://www.equinebloodsolutions.nz/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Updated-ACS-NZ-Brochure-Veterinary-Use.pdf

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Jack, I was talkin/thinkin of the anti-inflammatory of the rub on kind, that aren't allowed cos of whats in em etc, but maybe you should not be takin your info so literally (your clutchin at straws), nebulizin was mentioned last night as were all the other points, barrin point 2) possibly comin in next weeks installment; that said however I would imagine that any good horseman would/should know whether the pain a horse is feelin can be treated by this and or is more serious in nature and maybe it's just time to turn horse out.....and I can't see for the life of me how you can write off the BoxSeat report etc as PR spin, it was out there for all to see the Vet and O'Conner were up front with all of this, it was informative and Vet spoke with clarity and was concise in his explanations (unless your implyin Vet is in on it, yeh right).....PR spin to benefit who? one thing the Vet confirmed was that the process cannot 'performance enhance' (as best part of it is hurled out) it is used to help in healin quicker; and RIU guy confirmed it as legal!....so what's your real beef? read your link by the way and, so what? :rcf-thinking-1:

 

Cheers Iraklis

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I think I've had enough to say on the matter. There's enough information in this thread already to draw your own conclusions on whether this treatment should be allowed in a horses system on raceday. For some it's obvious, for others nothing is obvious.

The whole topic boils down to the true definition of "performance enhancing" - does it only mean something that makes a horse artificially stronger and faster, or does it also include things that artificially increase their pain threshold to prevent injuries slowing them down"?

The obvious danger inherent in the second part of definition is that increased pain thresholds also worsen injuries and increase catastrophic breakdown rates. The animal rights activists are going to have a field day with this at some point. 

 

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I give in we are allowed to inject joints everyone does.go around the warriors dressing room.there  are strict rules in harness racing and u break them at your peril.i know myself it's a hobby so it ain't worth it,its like Darren weir u will get caught sooner or later.as I said when u see how many all stars horses have had the treatment I'm sure u will be surprised considering their numbers. Nothing will ever satisfy the naysayers.except most of them don't do their research.

 

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Some quick points Tim.

1. At no point was this discussion limited to the All Stars use of this treatment. It's about the treatment itself and whether it's use should be permitted. We all know of several other stables using it.

2. Injecting joints whilst a very common treatment, doesn't fix a problem, it hides it. That's why it becomes less effective the longer it's used. The problem joints are worsening without the horse feeling them worsening ... as long as the injections continue.

3. The Warriors can authorise any medication they like within the rules. People have a choice. They're fully aware of the consequences they may face later in life.

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If some of our so caled top  expert commentators on our great industry would like to send me say a quantity of their blood I could spin it in my washing machine (central part where  powder goes, can set infinity spin ) and return it with plasma ,white cells removed and give them enhanced oxygen fixed red blood platelets.  and we can wait for enhanced intelligent decisions !!!. Just a thought......:rcf-injured:

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