Rusty

Simon Lawson

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Media reports about that he has admitted that he has placed bets on other horses in two races he has driven in. May 25th and July 20th last year. 

D Oliver and J Mac got 8 and 18 months respectively for similar offences, although J Mac bet on his own mount. David Walker's wee hiccup also comes to mind. 

For drivers/jockeys betting on horses other than their own, it should be a life ban from driving/riding in a race. 

And don't give me the "we all make mistakes, we are all human blah blah blah BS."  People get fired all the time from their employment for serious misconduct breaches. It should be the same thing here. Get rid of them. Don't need them, don't want them. 

J Mac bit different though. He was 100% trying and although there is no evidence to prove Lawson wasn't trying, he bet on another horse, other than his own. Far from ideal and gives more amo for the people that refer to the harness game as "cheats on seats". 

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Rusty you hit the nail on the head , he was placing bets with someone that had been in the game a long time you would expect better support from someone who new the rules front to back. today with all the electronic stuff around you can be photographed 100 times without you even knowing take it from someone who has been on a number of court cases and even I was surprised to see what departments can get without you even knowing.  

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I think you’ll find David walker was placing bets at the tab on races he was in and his bets where head to head bets where his horse was one of the head to head runners and he pulled the  horse he rode up so his bet could win 

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15 minutes ago, hsvman said:

I think you’ll find David walker was placing bets at the tab on races he was in and his bets where head to head bets where his horse was one of the head to head runners and he pulled the  horse he rode up so his bet could win 

Correct

 

Greg

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The whole industry is based around betting and it would be rare to find a participant who either has a bet or at least thinks about having a bet !

Especially when many are struggling and a few hundred  $$ extra would come in handy.

Therefore it staggers me to think that those wanting a bet but by the rules unable to , so openly defy the rules knowing that their future/livelihood depends on  it.

Its plain dumb !

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Your'e not allowed to bet Tim - :rcf-laughing-1:   

Seriously, one hopes the RIU are not playing big bully here.    They didn't with Natalie so they should be consistent.     An old saying is "be careful of it may bite you in the bum"         Also wonder if RIU consulted with HRNZ before lodging the appeal? 

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Can't find a problem in backing your own horse, it was done for ions , I remember Grenville Hughes talking about punting up large on  his mounts when he started as a jockey.  Alright illegal now , and this was stupid backing other horses, but surely it must be easy to get around.    Why depend on someone in the industry  when you have wives, girlfriends, brothers etc.   Wives / partner's can bet, if they had a punt, collected the money and paid you cash at home, how the hell could they ever prove it was your bet and not hers ?    Having someone in the industry doing it seems like a much easier  trial to follow.

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4 hours ago, tasman man 11 said:

 

Especially when many are struggling and a few hundred  $$ extra would come in handy.

 

Its plain dumb !

To say many are struggling TM is very true but is like a cracked record. If you're not getting winners, you're not getting clients so better to get right out of the game

 We're all responsible for ourselves. In many cases there's more to be made in a burger joint.

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18 hours ago, Blue said:

To say many are struggling TM is very true but is like a cracked record. If you're not getting winners, you're not getting clients so better to get right out of the game

 We're all responsible for ourselves. In many cases there's more to be made in a burger joint.

But on one hand  many of us Harness enthusiasts bemoan the impending closing of tracks ,the success of of the major stable look forward to the demise or fall from grace of successful people but now see the need to wipe out the ones who may keep the industry going.

Here is a 'young' talented horseman who has won junior titles , driven some good horses , tried training with family support and still obviously enjoys the industry.....possibly the only 'job' he has ever done.

Unfortunately the industry is based around 'punting' and there is a constant temptation for participants to make a few bucks by betting on a winner !

Punting becomes a habit and in their environment is very easy to do.

Simon obviously crossed the line ...betting in a race he was driving in......and deserves a penalty , but I disagree that he needs to be banned from the Industry  he has been devoted to and sent packing .....unable to be involved with horses ,his lifestyle !

From what I see these horse people love their horses ,like family !

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2 hours ago, tasman man 11 said:

But on one hand  many of us Harness enthusiasts bemoan the impending closing of tracks ,the success of of the major stable look forward to the demise or fall from grace of successful people but now see the need to wipe out the ones who may keep the industry going.

Here is a 'young' talented horseman who has won junior titles , driven some good horses , tried training with family support and still obviously enjoys the industry.....possibly the only 'job' he has ever done.

Unfortunately the industry is based around 'punting' and there is a constant temptation for participants to make a few bucks by betting on a winner !

Punting becomes a habit and in their environment is very easy to do.

Simon obviously crossed the line ...betting in a race he was driving in......and deserves a penalty , but I disagree that he needs to be banned from the Industry  he has been devoted to and sent packing .....unable to be involved with horses ,his lifestyle !

From what I see these horse people love their horses ,like family !

Im hearing you but whats the point of having rules that are fit for purpose {Integrity} if you dont enforce them. If you dont know the rules or dont want to abide by them then perhaps you should not be looking to be  licensed

 

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This was a remit that was put to HRNZ conference last year, im tipping but not 100% that it was passed

 

 

Betting on Horseman’s Betting Account
(proposed by HRNZ Board)
Remit
Amend rule 505 by inserting a new sub
-
rule (4) which states:
505
(
4
)
For the purpose of th
is 
rule a bet placed
on
a horseman’s betting account
shall be a bet
of the horseman
regardless of who placed the bet
.
Reason
The proposed change to
this rule is to clarify that any bet placed on the
account of a horseman
shall
be
deemed to belong to that horseman.

 

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Rusty - That's funny how you use Lawson as an example of "cheats on seats" while every other example you quote is from the galloping code.  

I think 18 months is fine for a first offence. Is it a first offence?

i also think jockeys and drivers should be able to bet on their own mounts. I cannot see the harm in that. 

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2 hours ago, Idolmite said:

Rusty - That's funny how you use Lawson as an example of "cheats on seats" while every other example you quote is from the galloping code.  

I think 18 months is fine for a first offence. Is it a first offence?

i also think jockeys and drivers should be able to bet on their own mounts. I cannot see the harm in that. 

Totally agree with your last sentence. I think they should be able to too (jockeys and drivers to bet on their own horses). We share that opinion, but we probably disagree with the length of any suspension handed down. 

Please re-read my last sentence in original post. I never used Lawson as an example, I merely referred to "some people" will use this example (Lawson) as a reference to the term "cheats on seats". 

For the record I have never referred to Lawson as a cheat, nor did I in my original post. I even stated there was no evidence to prove he was not trying. 

 

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19 hours ago, Newmarket RC said:

Im hearing you but whats the point of having rules that are fit for purpose {Integrity} if you dont enforce them. If you dont know the rules or dont want to abide by them then perhaps you should not be looking to be  licensed

 

Were the new betting  rules endorsed by the horseman before being implemented ? We do live in a democracy .

However betting on another horse in a race you are driving in is not a good look. Still think betting outside that senario is ok. Whats the chances you can nominate yourself with a second job,  bet and pay income tax alongside your first job ?

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:rcf-secret:Agree with Tasman Man . That it is bad enough committing the offence but leaving a trail a broken down greyhound could follow would lead me to give him a further 18 months for stupidity. (also feel must add I in no way regard him as stupid but his actions certainly were)  

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2 hours ago, 2Piper said:

Were the new betting  rules endorsed by the horseman before being implemented ? We do live in a democracy .

However betting on another horse in a race you are driving in is not a good look. Still think betting outside that senario is ok. Whats the chances you can nominate yourself with a second job,  bet and pay income tax alongside your first job ?

Turkeys dont vote for Christmas comes to mind:rcfe-happy-1:

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On 3/7/2019 at 5:51 PM, Mr Spyro said:

Can't find a problem in backing your own horse, it was done for ions , I remember Grenville Hughes talking about punting up large on  his mounts when he started as a jockey.  Alright illegal now , and this was stupid backing other horses, but surely it must be easy to get around.    Why depend on someone in the industry  when you have wives, girlfriends, brothers etc.   Wives / partner's can bet, if they had a punt, collected the money and paid you cash at home, how the hell could they ever prove it was your bet and not hers ?    Having someone in the industry doing it seems like a much easier  trial to follow.

You are right. This has gone on forever. Some 35 plus years ago I would regularly place bets for a Harness Racing Patrol Steward when there was a local meeting. Location will not be revealed. I'm certain it still goes on to this day

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Well I know it was happening at least early 90's  and as you say probably continues.   I had a friend whose dad was on the committee overseeing inquiries so betting was prohibited  ,  at  his local   meetings his family were putting on the bets for him. 

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1 hour ago, Mr Spyro said:

Well I know it was happening at least early 90's  and as you say probably continues.   I had a friend whose dad was on the committee overseeing inquiries so betting was prohibited  ,  at  his local   meetings his family were putting on the bets for him. 

I know it was going on in the sixties. Had a relation who was working in the telephone exchange and some of them were listening in (not him/her) particularly on Saturday mornings. You could not get away with using your phone now of course.

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