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Lance O'Sullivan

369 posts in this topic

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43 minutes ago, biff said:

Admin, a qualified vet I'm not, but I do know enough about cobalt having mixed with the trotting fraternity in Sydney for some time, I also base my attack on the fact after all this time this is the excuse. I didn't come down in the last shower, nor did most on here, it's not like this stable, or one of them is Goldylocks either, I've done as much reading on cobalt [that time will permit me] to enhance the knowledge I had from [previous].........the red hots in Oz are far in front re this, always have been, since the Vinnie Knight days, and unfortunately Admin, I'll go to my grave not believing this. My business partner or one of them is a compounding chemist from a previous life, a bit like Bjorn you might say, and he doubled up with laughter when he read this.....translated into Espanol as it was.......many countries in Latin America are third world and yet when I chat to our contacts there they are astounded by what goes on here in NZ, as they perceive little old Godzone to be a 1st world leader in food and agriculture. Their take on this is proving comical to say the least, and no doubt it's proving comical to the majority here in NZ also. At the very least both of them should get a holiday and fine Admin, and seek help from professionals that might cure their stupidity for running dairy cattle and a maybe milk producer herd with a number of fancied racing stock and ask said racing stock to share a trough of water/cobalt infusion. I don't know what's worse Admin, the sheer stupidity of it all or the conceit.

Biff - it doesn't matter what you believe however the RIU find the reason given as plausible and it seems they have found no other evidence to suggest that cobalt was administered in high doses deliberately.

As for sharing paddocks with cattle (not always at the same time) it has been going on in New Zealand for many many decades.  In times past every dairy farmer or dry stock farmer had at lease one thoroughbred mare running around the property.  Many farmers were amateur trainers and many professional trainers were livestock farmers.  For example Kevin Gray when at his old Copper Belt Lodge was a large dairy farmer.  Brian Anderton of White Robe Lodges runs large quantities of dry stock.  It is a fact of life in New Zealand.  

Even with the latest drop in dairy prices it is more profitable to run a dairy herd on your paddocks than race horses.  Unfortunately with they way the industry is being run we are seeing a fast decline in the number of farmers running mares and more professional trainers farming other livestock to stay in business.

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6 minutes ago, Yorkielad said:

Possible, aye ...

Like, little green men from outer space visiting our planet every other week.

:rolleyes:

 

Just because you haven't seen them it doesn't mean that they don't exist.

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9 minutes ago, Trump said:

As I've posted before, I cannot for the life of me understand why the horses in question have not been disqualified? Either they raced with a prohibited substance/level or they didn't. If they did why have the horses not been dq'd?

AGREE  WHOLEHEARTEDLY!!! Case of who it is here!!! Cannot see the same time period elapsing if it was small owner trainer! Regardless of what charges were laid against trainers......horses were over the limit so should be disqualified immediately!! 

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As with any legal jurisdiction the process (not necessarily the outcome) can be influenced by the resources of the parties concerned.  So a small owner/trainer wouldn't have the resources to challenge the process nor more likely the knowledge to do so.

A case in point being Midget's case - NZTR and the RIU threw unlimited resources at the issue - Kevin countered with funding and the behind the scenes help of a number of individuals.

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Henry30, I  not interested in who or how the horses came to have a prohibited substance/level in their system following a swab. That's something for the Authorities to determine after the presentation of the facts/evidence given at an inquiry. But that should have no bearing on the "fact", that the horses were found to have prohibited levels when they raced! Therefore, I believe the Authorities have done everyone a disservice by not acting upon the results of the swabs. If that had, then there would not have been such a prolonged commentary on cyber space! 

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1 hour ago, Midget said:

Grazing your horses for a few hours a day in a nice paddock, also used by cattle, after their last race and during the recovery phase, and weeks before their next race, is very much a NZ thing you know, and that's what makes us unique.

 

Just putting my fair and reasonable hat on again mate, and apologies again to the conspirators baying for blood if facts and common sense undermine their theories.

 

Even if I were a dog, I hope I wouldn't be seen to be baying for blood here. That's not what this is about IMO.

Are you now implying that the horses concerned were in the paddock with the cobalt laced water "weeks before" the race when the positive occurred and still returned levels three times the threshold? If so, you need to get the water that you're drinking tested as well.

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2 hours ago, GONSTA said:

How many of the other horses in their stable had access to this 'blue' water?

What were the readings of the frozen swabs the RIU would have tested?

If you had a horse that was going to be running in the derby, surely days leading up to the race you wouldn't let it run around in a paddock?? I'm no horse trainer but I can imagine you wouldn't want a horse free galloping and exerting energy before they want it to 'peak'.

 

We could have a different thread on the best excuses used when cheats have been caught, Contador and his tainted steak, the tennis player that tested positive to cocaine because he kissed a girl at a night club, Moody and his hoof powder, the greyhound trainer that got off an a-class positive swab because someone touched his dog after the race, and now we have horses drinking blue water and running the races of their lives! Oh boy what a world we live in. 

The only comment where we differ Gonsta is on the paddocking of a derby hope.....we won Gr races when I was an apprentice with our paddockers, but that was how we trained back then, never change a horses routine, but would we have run ours with cattle and their cobalt chasers......you betcha booties we wouldn't.....I also trained winners in 3 states of Oz with my walk in walk outers.......but the cobalt was missing, one broke a track record that stands now after 30 years, mile and 3 home in 33 sec....what would he have run with cobalt in him......oh wow, what did I miss.

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1 minute ago, Leggy said:

Even if I were a dog, I hope I wouldn't be seen to be seen to be baying for blood here. That's not what this is about IMO.

Are you now implying that the horses concerned were in the paddock with the cobalt laced water "weeks before" the race when the positive occurred and still returned levels three times the threshold? If so, you need to get the water that you're drinking tested as well.

No I'm not, I'm just saying we don't understand the science of cobalt retention and you CANNOT presume the heavy metal salt is retained or excreted in the manner of the water soluble VB12 ( which suits your theories a little better ).

I've referred you/them to the human toxicity with cobalt in beer case in North America about a hundred times, there's an abundance of evidence associated with that that suggest liver, kidney, thyroid, heart, soft tissue and skeletal muscle is seriously damaged by the heavy metal salt.

You can thus reasonably presume that similar would apply in a horse and extending that that cobalt salt residues " hang around " for long periods.

Water soluble vitamins don't though, presumably because the cobalt is bound pharmaceutically and is actively excreted, go take a Barocca if you need to see the experiment in real time.

These three horse " could have " been exposed to cobalt salt any time, it simply doesn't follow that it had to be the day before or the day of the Derby.

I'll close with two thoughts.

The stake money should be refunded when the respondent either pleads guilty, or is found guilty, and not before because this could yet be contamination, laboratory failure, or something of that ilk. We simply don't know yet how that aspect will evolve although the indications are that we'll see a guilty plea to the lesser charge soon enough.

My last thought, and it applies to the extraordinary reluctance of posters to accept the solid science here, and I love the delicious irony in this metaphor.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

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12 minutes ago, biff said:

The only comment where we differ Gonsta is on the paddocking of a derby hope.....we won Gr races when I was an apprentice with our paddockers, but that was how we trained back then, never change a horses routine, but would we have run ours with cattle and their cobalt chasers......you betcha booties we wouldn't.....I also trained winners in 3 states of Oz with my walk in walk outers.......but the cobalt was missing, one broke a track record that stands now after 30 years, mile and 3 home in 33 sec....what would he have run with cobalt in him......oh wow, what did I miss.

Biff - can you tell us when they started testing for cobalt during the period(s) you were training?  Also the maximum thresholds.  Much appreciated if you could, using your extensive experience, tell us.  Thanks in advance.

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7 minutes ago, biff said:

The only comment where we differ Gonsta is on the paddocking of a derby hope.....we won Gr races when I was an apprentice with our paddockers, but that was how we trained back then, never change a horses routine, but would we have run ours with cattle and their cobalt chasers......you betcha booties we wouldn't.....I also trained winners in 3 states of Oz with my walk in walk outers.......but the cobalt was missing, one broke a track record that stands now after 30 years, mile and 3 home in 33 sec....what would he have run with cobalt in him......oh wow, what did I miss.

Fair enough biff, I enjoy reading your comments on here. The only reason I would have thought you wouldn't want a horse that's running over 2400 the next day running around in a paddock exerting energy. You often hear trainers say he's 'primed for the race', yet if he's been in a paddock overnight what's stopping the horse running around like crazy and chasing a filly ( or cow in Wexfords case ) in the next paddock. Just like you wouldn't want your horse running 11 sec furlongs during his final training gallop. Admittedly I'm no horse trainer.

I really hope we learn what really went on with the Wexford lads, somehow I think that's 100-1 and drifting as the days go on! 

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2 minutes ago, Midget said:

No I'm not, I'm just saying we don't understand the science of cobalt retention and you CANNOT presume the heavy metal salt is retained or excreted in the manner of the water soluble VB12 ( which suits your theories a little better ).

 

I suggest you read again the studies in your hot little hand which show the clearance rates of cobalt salts in horses, and stop claiming that playing dumb is science. I've just turned off my phone btw.

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25 minutes ago, 2Admin2 said:

Biff - can you tell us when they started testing for cobalt during the period(s) you were training?  Also the maximum thresholds.  Much appreciated if you could, using your extensive experience, tell us.  Thanks in advance.

Gee you love being facetious eh? My experience is my business, however, if I offer a view I'll do so due to either experience or knowledge of. Cobalt has been around since Adam played fullback, the harness game in Vic were accused back in the 70's and then the masking agents surfaced. Your support for this stable is transparent, good on you but I'm not joining the backslappers society thanks. I've had enough of the Moody bullshit, the crap from Kav and O'Brien, and now this shit. I think we all agree on one thing though the RIU here is a laughable excuse for integrity police, Morton case highlighted. I do say hand on heart that I never put any shit in my horses I wouldn't take myself! I learned that from a wonderful man who won 11 state premierships his quote stands, a trainer that needs help, needs help. In this case by accident or design Admin, these trainers are Dumb and dumber !

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57 minutes ago, Leggy said:

I suggest you read again the studies in your hot little hand which show the clearance rates of cobalt salts in horses, and stop claiming that playing dumb is science. I've just turned off my phone btw.

You're being somewhat difficult young man.

One word, lead ( as in heavy metal PB ), what would be the difference between heavy metal elements like lead and cobalt or can we presume they'd act in a similar fashion ?

 

As for those calling for stake money to be refunded and the horses disqualified.

Think Peter Williams, Ivan Bridge, Planet Rock, ketoprofen, and hellooooo, the legal eagle involved, one Alan Galbraith.

 

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2 minutes ago, Midget said:

You're being somewhat difficult young man.

One word, lead ( as in heavy metal PB ), what would be the difference between heavy metal elements like lead and cobalt or can we presume they'd act in a similar fashion ?

 

Don't think we can presume anything. What we know is that urine and serum levels of cobalt (both salts and VB12) peak and drop quickly, hours not days, whether administered orally or IV. That is for normal doses though. We don't know if that differs for super high doses of either especially if administered repeatedly over a period of time. We also know that excess doses of heavy metals such as you mention are stored/retained in the body. But if retained they wouldn't be appearing in the serum or urine at several times the threshold would they? Unless they continue to be excreted at a high rate over a period of time following the last administration, and there's zero evidence of that as far as I know.

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20 minutes ago, Leggy said:

Don't think we can presume anything. What we know is that urine and serum levels of cobalt (both salts and VB12) peak and drop quickly, hours not days, whether administered orally or IV. That is for normal doses though. We don't know if that differs for super high doses of either especially if administered repeatedly over a period of time. We also know that excess doses of heavy metals such as you mention are stored/retained in the body. But if retained they wouldn't be appearing in the serum or urine at several times the threshold would they? Unless they continue to be excreted at a high rate over a period of time following the last administration, and there's zero evidence of that as far as I know.

There is a very old paper from the 40's that injected cobalt directly into cows - it says that with large dose cobalt large amounts were excreted very quickly.  That study was on ruminants and all the papers I have seen say that ruminants and monogastric equines handle cobalt very differently.

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19 minutes ago, Midget said:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4637398/

i knew I'd find an article that supported my proposition, and this is from an august periodical that would withstand the most vigorous scrutiny.

I enclose a page that rather sums up the likely scenario.

image.png

Yeah great research comparing the 'human body' to a thoroughbred. Some of your best work.

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21 minutes ago, GONSTA said:

Yeah great research comparing the 'human body' to a thoroughbred. Some of your best work.

Arguably a horse's stomach biology is more akin to humans than cattle or sheep.

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Quickly read some of this thread but haven't indulged myself by reading each and every word - however some of what I did read amazed me.   It seems that some prefer to just post whatever comes into their heads, rather than thinking about it or actually establishing fact from fiction and some are just determined to be right no matter what  :)  that is always an entertaining option for folk to take and one of my faves to read :)  .. anyway ..  if this link has been posted before then apologies for the repetition.. but if not.. you may find this information of interest ... Courtesy of the    Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry   .http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/PHS/PHS.asp?id=371&tid=64

Of note - ... depending on kidney function, excretion is not always optimal which means that it may not be expelled in the urine efficiently, also there can be issues with regards to build up over a period of time.   Not always noticed at first due to there being levels of cobalt in most "farm based" animals anyway.   Also of note in large areas of open soil, mining, excavation, land development,  it can be carried in the air or the wind, also where there has been a lot of rainfall and flooding, causing residue in waterways and water supply if from a bore etc, also higher levels of cobalt can be found depending on the size of the particles, these may stay closer to the surface of the pasture or the waterway beds meaning that they are then transported, consumed or absorbed in higher levels.

 

 

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45 minutes ago, Midget said:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4637398/

i knew I'd find an article that supported my proposition, and this is from an august periodical that would withstand the most vigorous scrutiny.

I enclose a page that rather sums up the likely scenario.

image.png

Geez Midget, my first degree might have been in animal physiology though I think I was riding in Ireland at the time of my biochem 200 exam, so understanding the link between that paper and your hypothesis might be beyond me many years later. Perhaps you'd explain how it supports your theory in terms that more of us can understand?

Assuming that equine and human physiology work similarly, what I think this is saying is that excess cobalt, while initially excreted rapidly, accumulates in a range of tissues, which might explain the toxic effects. That excretion rate reduces markedly after 24 hours and 10% is retained permanently. It's interesting that it permanently binds to haemoglobin which suggests that serum levels might be a better test for racing integrity than urine levels, although that might also be more dangerous with respect to the likes of the current case, if that is based on inadvertent intake weeks before. It certainly suggests that there are unlikely to be high levels in urine weeks after intake doesn't it? After all, it's the excretion levels we are testing for here I think, not the tissue or retained levels.

 

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