We're Doomed

Stakes Allocation

16 posts in this topic

I do wonder sometimes (alright, often) about the way we allocate stakes money in NZ.  I see this weekend the Herbie Dyke is worth $400,000 and the group 1 sprint only $200,000. In all honesty the sprint noms are miles better than the Dyke, and virtually always are. This year the sprint has two high class Southern horses and some handy Northern types. The Dyke doesn't have anything too flash, and only 10 noms. One does wonder why both races aren't worth $300,000. I see the club contributes $150,000 to the Dyke and NZTR kindly tosses in an extra $50,000. I imagine there is some sort of bequest from Herbie, but really, that extra $200,000 is totally wasted money. Probably the same field would have lined up for $200,000. And remember last year the sprint was won by Melody Belle with Bostonian second. Are they perhaps concerned the Dyke might be downgraded? I see it is under a warning. Interesting that the NZPC "would be reluctant to see the race downgraded", largely because of its stake of $400,000. Surely group status is dependant on field quality, not the stake. And should NZTR be pouring money into a race to help it retain its group rating?

Even the idea of having the group 2 guineas and the group 2 fillies race on the same day, both over 2,000m for $100,000, is a strange one, with 9 noms in the guineas, topped by two fillies, and only 7 in the fillies race. The fillies race has even attracted a last start maiden winner from Sale, otherwise there would have been only six. Even the 2yo race on the day has only 5 noms and a rating 72, 7 noms.

Tauranga this thursday has fields of 6 in a maiden, 6 in a $25,000 rating 72, 7 in a $30,000 rating 82, 7 in a $22,500 rating 65, 8 in a $25,000 rating 72. And these all before any scratchings.

We really are wasting a lot of money in the way we allocate stakes. Races with good stakes, at all levels, are not attracting fields to justify those stakes, while at the same time elsewhere in the country horses are routinely being eliminated. We really do need to be a lot more careful in the ways we use our "extremely" limited resources.

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1 hour ago, We're Doomed said:

I do wonder sometimes (alright, often) about the way we allocate stakes money in NZ.  I see this weekend the Herbie Dyke is worth $400,000 and the group 1 sprint only $200,000. In all honesty the sprint noms are miles better than the Dyke, and virtually always are. This year the sprint has two high class Southern horses and some handy Northern types. The Dyke doesn't have anything too flash, and only 10 noms. One does wonder why both races aren't worth $300,000. I see the club contributes $150,000 to the Dyke and NZTR kindly tosses in an extra $50,000. I imagine there is some sort of bequest from Herbie, but really, that extra $200,000 is totally wasted money. Probably the same field would have lined up for $200,000. And remember last year the sprint was won by Melody Belle with Bostonian second. Are they perhaps concerned the Dyke might be downgraded? I see it is under a warning. Interesting that the NZPC "would be reluctant to see the race downgraded", largely because of its stake of $400,000. Surely group status is dependant on field quality, not the stake. And should NZTR be pouring money into a race to help it retain its group rating?

Even the idea of having the group 2 guineas and the group 2 fillies race on the same day, both over 2,000m for $100,000, is a strange one, with 9 noms in the guineas, topped by two fillies, and only 7 in the fillies race. The fillies race has even attracted a last start maiden winner from Sale, otherwise there would have been only six. Even the 2yo race on the day has only 5 noms and a rating 72, 7 noms.

Tauranga this thursday has fields of 6 in a maiden, 6 in a $25,000 rating 72, 7 in a $30,000 rating 82, 7 in a $22,500 rating 65, 8 in a $25,000 rating 72. And these all before any scratchings.

We really are wasting a lot of money in the way we allocate stakes. Races with good stakes, at all levels, are not attracting fields to justify those stakes, while at the same time elsewhere in the country horses are routinely being eliminated. We really do need to be a lot more careful in the ways we use our "extremely" limited resources.

Exactly and look at the programme in the CD ,the R82 YRAP cup being run for 20k the next day a R72 2100 run at Awapuni for 25k, these staying races up the grades have been struggling for numbers for years now(particularly when the tracks harden up), how hard is it to recognise the duplication in this? 6 noms at Awapuni one in both races. It really isn't that hard with some initiative.

None of those fields at Awapuni or Tauranga would be any different if you took 5-10k off the stakes.

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6 hours ago, We're Doomed said:

I do wonder sometimes (alright, often) about the way we allocate stakes money in NZ.  I see this weekend the Herbie Dyke is worth $400,000 and the group 1 sprint only $200,000. In all honesty the sprint noms are miles better than the Dyke, and virtually always are. This year the sprint has two high class Southern horses and some handy Northern types. The Dyke doesn't have anything too flash, and only 10 noms. One does wonder why both races aren't worth $300,000. I see the club contributes $150,000 to the Dyke and NZTR kindly tosses in an extra $50,000. I imagine there is some sort of bequest from Herbie, but really, that extra $200,000 is totally wasted money. Probably the same field would have lined up for $200,000. And remember last year the sprint was won by Melody Belle with Bostonian second. Are they perhaps concerned the Dyke might be downgraded? I see it is under a warning. Interesting that the NZPC "would be reluctant to see the race downgraded", largely because of its stake of $400,000. Surely group status is dependant on field quality, not the stake. And should NZTR be pouring money into a race to help it retain its group rating?

Even the idea of having the group 2 guineas and the group 2 fillies race on the same day, both over 2,000m for $100,000, is a strange one, with 9 noms in the guineas, topped by two fillies, and only 7 in the fillies race. The fillies race has even attracted a last start maiden winner from Sale, otherwise there would have been only six. Even the 2yo race on the day has only 5 noms and a rating 72, 7 noms.

Tauranga this thursday has fields of 6 in a maiden, 6 in a $25,000 rating 72, 7 in a $30,000 rating 82, 7 in a $22,500 rating 65, 8 in a $25,000 rating 72. And these all before any scratchings.

We really are wasting a lot of money in the way we allocate stakes. Races with good stakes, at all levels, are not attracting fields to justify those stakes, while at the same time elsewhere in the country horses are routinely being eliminated. We really do need to be a lot more careful in the ways we use our "extremely" limited resources.

This $150K from the club is direct from Dyke family to sponsor this race.  It is not to be distributed elsewhere.

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Out three  feature races open to males , 1 potential stallion entered  and he's Irish ,  the whole card features only four intact males . Strange stuff for couple open age group 1's  for what is still a top horse breeding country .

 

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1 hour ago, shaneMcAlister said:

This $150K from the club is direct from Dyke family to sponsor this race.  It is not to be distributed elsewhere.

Thanks for that Shane. I did assume there must be some money from the family. Certainly a generous sponsorship. I wonder how many years it will last. And I wonder why NZTR had to toss in an extra $50,000. Perhaps that money could have gone into the sprint. It is an example of how dramatically increased stakes have no impact on the field, because if there are no quality weight for age horses about the stake makes no difference at all. Quite a good lesson there for the industry as a whole. We need to work with what we have and use our resources accordingly. Must be frustrating for the club to see money wasted like that.

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Isn’t this just a build up of the downward spiral of where we are at in NZ?
Yearlings sold, RTR sales, trials performers exit the country at the rate of knots, it has to affect the product NZ trainers are left with, and we still box above our weight.

I would love to have a horse good enough to participate in either race, but go through the list of past winners for both races over the last 30 years and see the quality of the animal that used to line up in these once prestigious races, we are on a rapid down hill spiral, and arresting that spiral is going to be a massive task....

Then there is the renaming of the 3yo fillies race.........

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34 minutes ago, Chris Wood said:

Isn’t this just a build up of the downward spiral of where we are at in NZ?
Yearlings sold, RTR sales, trials performers exit the country at the rate of knots, it has to affect the product NZ trainers are left with, and we still box above our weight.

I would love to have a horse good enough to participate in either race, but go through the list of past winners for both races over the last 30 years and see the quality of the animal that used to line up in these once prestigious races, we are on a rapid down hill spiral, and arresting that spiral is going to be a massive task....

Then there is the renaming of the 3yo fillies race.........

All true Chris. The two group ones used to be great races: La Mer, Vice Regal etc. The fillies classic doesn't seem to have a name at all. Didn't it used to be the Sir Tristram?

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There are 14 races in NZ that are considered iconic and for this reason get additional funding. 
 

herbie dyke stakes calculates like this:

$200k is the nztr contribution for group 1 races. 
$50k for iconic races

$150k from dyke family. 

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9 hours ago, We're Doomed said:

Interesting that the NZPC "would be reluctant to see the race downgraded", largely because of its stake of $400,000. Surely group status is dependant on field quality, not the stake

the Pattern Committee actually doesn't say the above.

The exact quote is "Given these circumstances (and the circumstances were a) this years edition rated 110.25 which followed the previous years edition being run on a wet track which contributed to its rating of 108.5, b) the top 4 starters did average an acceptable 114 with Danzdanzdance running 5th, c) Lizzie lÁmour & Madison County were scratching although no race can be rated on horses that may have started, and d) the race has surpassed the tolerance threshold in the previous 5 seasons) and the significant $400,000 prizemoney, the NZPC would be most reluctant to see this race downgraded...….

the race has historically rated extremely well and winners in the last 10 years include exceptional fillies in Katie Lee, Bonneval, King's Rose, Fix & Dijon Bleu

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3 minutes ago, shaneMcAlister said:

There are 14 races in NZ that are considered iconic and for this reason get additional funding. 
 

herbie dyke stakes calculates like this:

$200k is the nztr contribution for group 1 races. 
$50k for iconic races

$150k from dyke family. 

I just wish they'd keep the original titles for these iconic races! :rcf-sad-12:

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21 minutes ago, shaneMcAlister said:

There are 14 races in NZ that are considered iconic and for this reason get additional funding. 
 

herbie dyke stakes calculates like this:

$200k is the nztr contribution for group 1 races. 
$50k for iconic races

$150k from dyke family. 

Any idea why the Dyke is considered iconic and the sprint isn't? Traditionally they have always had equal stakes and the sprint has usually had the better field. The iconic status for those 14 races is just a method for NZTR to throw some extra money at certain selected races for various reasons. Only 8 of the 14 races are group ones, two are only listed grade. Historically, the two group one 2,000m races at Ellerslie would be considered at least the equal of the Dyke (which is of course the International Stakes, just in case anyone is confused) and yet neither of those races have iconic status. Many would argue the old Air NZ Stakes was NZ's premier WFA race. It has fallen from grace these days of course.

The 14 "iconic" races are not NZ's best 14 races by any criteria. They don't therefore "for this reason get additional funding". NZTR just has $1.82m that it distributes randomly to a few selected races. Several of them are Winston's $1m races from last time he was in power, and it looked a bit embarrassing to see them drop from $1m, or in the case of the Derby $2.2m, back to $200,000. They even toss a few dollars into the old $2m Kelt, which wasn't one of Winston's, but was the only reason the Derby went to $2.2m. And it isn't a fixed $50,000 to each race, the amount varies race by race.

I have nothing against the incredibly generous sponsorship from the Dykes, it is just a pity the money doesn't really achieve anything in terms of attracting a high class field. I think it is a very good lesson for the industry that we must use our limited funds wisely.

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7 hours ago, Baz (NZ) said:

Stakes need to be increased at Grass roots level to encourage new blood and new owners into the game.

At least to show investors the game is worth investing in and not a bad one!

Agreed.  If our new betting platform did not have a $19M a year maintenance contract we would have an extra $400K a week for stakes.  That would mean a boast of $50K for 8 races every Saturday.  Food for thought.

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Agree totally Baz and Shane,

I,ve run a couple of Syndicates with mates...SURE the fun aspect is there,

BUT, Unless you are @ the top end and in a big syndicate, (or lucky), the expenses far outweigh the income !

And the novelty soon wears off.

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