N.Z. Racing Hall of Fame - joking?

[The Apprentice 1]

Nobody has said Showgate was no good etc! Get real! Now we have a poster saying that "Showgate was the equal of Sunline and Black Caviar"!! What a disgrace. What next? That she would have won 3 Melb Cups - like Makybe Diva?

It's one person's opinion (and mine) whether or not she deserves a place in the NZ Racing Hall of Fame. End of story. Yet we get Ashoka (a shocker!) calling people ignorant, arrogant etc for having that opinion!

Weak!

[tasman man 742]

.....tell a story about the regard 'Showgate' was held in.

You guys poking the borax at The Apprentice may be interested to know he shared in the ownership of a very good Group1 horse who won several Group races incl The Easter Mile and was placed in the Group1 Telegraph at least twice.

In fact had had his horse won all the Group races he placed in he too may have 2 x HOY titles beside name and warrant consideration for the Hall of Fame as he too battled unsoundness....not quite a fractured sesamoid.

[Leggy 4,096]

Nobody has said Showgate was no good etc! Get real! Now we have a poster saying that "Showgate was the equal of Sunline and Black Caviar"!! What a disgrace. What next? That she would have won 3 Melb Cups - like Makybe Diva?

It's one person's opinion (and mine) whether or not she deserves a place in the NZ Racing Hall of Fame. End of story. Yet we get Ashoka (a shocker!) calling people ignorant, arrogant etc for having that opinion!

Weak!

Apprentice, you are entitled to your opinion but I think you are completely missing the point. It is not about how many Group Is she might have won even if they had them in those days. You make comments like "Did she cover herself in glory overseas?" but that is not a criteria for entry to the HoF. It is an exception rather than the rule which is:

In all instances, nominees will have been outstanding achievers in their category and in their era]

Which of those criteria does Showgate fail to meet in your opinion?

[Leggy 4,096]

Now we have a poster saying that "Showgate was the equal of Sunline and Black Caviar"!! What a disgrace. What next?

Humour me for a minute and accept that she woulda, coulda, shoulda won one of Good Lord's 2 Wellington Cups. That was giving 5 kgs to a horse that dealt to a very good Sydney Cup field under a colossal weight as well.

Neither Sunline nor Black Caviar will do or have done what Showgate did.

That is to win Group races (or equivalent) from 1200m to 2400m (shoulda been 3200m). Nor will they compare with her effort of all but winning three in a week from 1200 to 2000m on two occasions.

[Ashoka 1,179]

You complain about being insulted.

In your first post, you disparaged Show Gate's achievements.

In your second post, you cast aspersions on the abilities of all the panel members who voted Show Gate Horse of the Year twice.

By implication, you are rubbishing the comprehension capabilities of all the esteemed individuals who elevated Show Gate into the Hall of Fame.

You continue to comment even when your ignorance regarding Group Races and the nature of racing back in Show Gate's day identifies you as an individual unqualified to do so on this matter.

You are blinded by your own perceived brilliance.

Gauche, Mr Apprentice...gauche indeed.

Regards.

Ashoka

[Centrofold 147]

Showgate is inducted into the Hall of Fame. Too bad if some people can't see why she is there.

[The Apprentice 1]

Your Quote

The reverse also applies.

[The Apprentice 1]

Your Quote

I think I just posted a few of the places she won races at? The facts - something you play with (along with other things obviously).

It's an opinion. Get it? An opinion. She doesn't deserve to be in the HOF. So don't be so personal. You have yours - others theirs. Ignorance & arrogance are words obviously you are not familiar with. How can someone be arrogant for disagreeing with SG being put into the HOF? Take a bex and have a cuppatea and a lay down.

[Ashoka 1,179]

Your puerile approach is further defined by your callow nature.

Your comments were made in a disparaging manner but you now seek to portray them in another light.

Your contribution to this thread portrays you as an ignorant, arrogant and childish individual with an inability to accept your limitations.

Enough said.

Ashoka

[23Tank 33]

my somewhat anti racing parents live in Showgate Ave.....if I ever want to wind them up slightly I remind them of the champion horse their Street was named after.

Showgate was talented, brave, had longevity and a cult following.

Pure Racing fans in 50 years time need to know what a gutsy champion she was just like I need to have found out about Carbine, Gloaming, Desert Gold etc. It ain't just all about Phar Lap and Sunline and now another warrior of the turf will have a permanent place in racing history.

[Alf Riston 1,555]

.....tell a story about the regard 'Showgate' was held in.

You guys poking the borax at The Apprentice may be interested to know he shared in the ownership of a very good Group1 horse who won several Group races incl The Easter Mile and was placed in the Group1 Telegraph at least twice.

In fact had had his horse won all the Group races he placed in he too may have 2 x HOY titles beside name and warrant consideration for the Hall of Fame as he too battled unsoundness....not quite a fractured sesamoid.

you may have had an interest in a top horse, doesn't make you immune from being a 'dumb arse'.

The 2 knockers seem to be hell bent on G1 being the criteria and a bit off the mark on this one

[Centrofold 147]

you may have had an interest in a top horse, doesn't make you immune from being a 'dumb arse'.

Thanks for the laugh

[DICKSON CIDER 9]

I unlike you Mr Apprentice was an apprentice in Wingatui in the 70s when Showgate was racing.

Her feats were made even more remarkable in that her trainer Gordon Thompson was a bit of an eccentric, feeding once a day, no oats or chaff, working her without shoes and backing her up running two days in a row.

Some times you shook your head when she lined up but she always delivered.

Makes you wonder if she had been trained next door by A. E. Didham or one of the top northern stables what she could have done.

She was a freak and unlike some freaks, Sunline (taking nothing away from the great mare) she has has bred on.

[tasman man 742]

you may have had an interest in a top horse, doesn't make you immune from being a 'dumb arse'.

The 2 knockers seem to be hell bent on G1 being the criteria and a bit off the mark on this one

....but posters were resorting to calling TA names.....arrogant , ignorant etc and suggesting he was just some 'nutter' posting anonymously.

I don't agree with him , but could see why he maybe questioned it.

But no need to start abusing him.

It's in the book, locked in ,and there will be few who question it.

Clearly under the criteria , Showgate was a worthy inductee.

[Gruff 2,808]

The horse is famous so deserves her place.... Abit leica should sneak in as well !

[Ashoka 1,179]

Your posting is out of line.

I have read many of The Apprentice's postings and while I have not always agreed with his conclusions, I have found them to be informative, knowledgeable, well-written and well worth taking the time to peruse and consider.

However, on this occasion, The Apprentice chose to take a flippant attitude towards a horse that I consider to be an icon of the horse racing sport and industry.

He displayed the utmost in arrogance in slighting those who had chosen to elevate Show Gate to Horse of the Year on two occasions and placed her in the Hall of Fame. His ignorance was exemplified by his lack of knowledge surrounding Group Races, the nature of racing in Show Gate's time and the great mare's accomplishments.

I am aware that The Apprentice is clearly not a "nutter". My comments were statements of fact based on the evidence inherent in his comments on this occasion.

On the notion of anonymity, there is a school of thought that if you wish to lambast an individual, then you should relinquish such. I subscribe to this school and if that means that you must hold your tongue on occasions, "Sobeit" (a top racemare beaten a head by Show Gate in the Canterbury Gold Cup, I think).

All the best.

Ashoka

[Seakem 7]

Of course Show Gate deserves to be there.

Won't list all her achievements, but there are few horses in my lifetime who could have won the Stewarts 1200 metres on the first day, the Canterbury Gold Cup 2000 metres on the Wednesday, and then the 1600 metre race (have forgotten the name of the race) on the 3rd day of a NZ Cup meeting.

Her Wellington Cup run for 2nd to Good Lord (who was superbly ridden by Bob Skelton), carrying topweight, after an atrocious ride by Chris Ramage, coming very very wide on the turn, was enormous, at her only start over 3200 metres.

[rdytdy 5,343]

Of course Show Gate deserves to be there.

Won't list all her achievements, but there are few horses in my lifetime who could have won the Stewarts 1200 metres on the first day, the Canterbury Gold Cup 2000 metres on the Wednesday, and then the 1600 metre race (have forgotten the name of the race) on the 3rd day of a NZ Cup meeting.

Her Wellington Cup run for 2nd to Good Lord (who was superbly ridden by Bob Skelton), carrying topweight, after an atrocious ride by Chris Ramage, coming very very wide on the turn, was enormous, at her only start over 3200 metres.

The three races at Riccarton were the CJC Stewards Handicap (1200m), the CJC Canterbury Gold Cup (2000m) and the CJC Stewards Handicap (1600m).

Bob Skelton did not ride Good Lord to beat Show Gate in the 1977 Wellington Cup, it was Bruce Compton. Bruce gave Good Lord a beautiful run in the trail and took over at the 300m.

Show Gate was standing him up 30 lengths after Chris Ramage dropped her out last in the running (and pulling). Ramage then took her very wide in the straight and she made up a huge amount of ground with Ramage dropping his whip along the way and she failed to catch Good Lord by three quarters of a length. Ramage slapping her on the off side neck and the reins on the near side loose and flapping. Incidentally Good Lord was fifteenth favourite that day.

The Apprentice has in the past been lacking in knowledge of racing history and I will give him the benefit of doubt with this champion mare. Perhaps some of the postings about the exploits of the mare will enlighten him as to why she was included.

The 1970's was arguably the greatest period of racing in NZ with a host of top line gallopers racing in that period so for Show Gate to named NZ Horse of the Year twice 74/75 and 76/77 is surely testament to an extraordinary mare.

Grey Way was racing then, Balmerino, Battle Heights, Copper Belt, March Legend, La Mer etc etc.

Speaking of La Mer, in Mark Taylor's book Century Of Champions this sentence was included "Successful over 1200m to 2400m, La Mer annexed 17 Group races and commands a place alongside Show Gate, Horlicks and Sunline as one of New Zealand's finest race mares since the Second World War.

Show Gate was a household name and she has streets with her name honouring her, rooms and even a Show Gate building at Riccarton where she is buried on the course.

Group racing did not start in NZ until August 1977 and two years later began in Australia.

I note the original poster has not responded again and perhaps he has realised his mistake and I trust you also take time The Apprentice to digest what has been said about an iconic horse.

Give Bob Skelton a call or Bruce Marsh who won the 1974 Telegraph Handicap on her and ask them. I can guarantee what their response would be.

[rumpole 483]

The three races at Riccarton were the CJC Stewards Handicap (1200m), the CJC Canterbury Gold Cup (2000m) and the CJC Stewards Handicap (1600m).

Bob Skelton did not ride Good Lord to beat Show Gate in the 1977 Wellington Cup, it was Bruce Compton. Bruce gave Good Lord a beautiful run in the trail and took over at the 300m.

Show Gate was standing him up 30 lengths after Chris Ramage dropped her out last in the running (and pulling). Ramage then took her very wide in the straight and she made up a huge amount of ground with Ramage dropping his whip along the way and she failed to catch Good Lord by three quarters of a length. Ramage slapping her on the off side neck and the reins on the near side loose and flapping. Incidentally Good Lord was fifteenth favourite that day.

The Apprentice has in the past been lacking in knowledge of racing history and I will give him the benefit of doubt with this champion mare. Perhaps some of the postings about the exploits of the mare will enlighten him as to why she was included.

The 1970's was arguably the greatest period of racing in NZ with a host of top line gallopers racing in that period so for Show Gate to named NZ Horse of the Year twice 74/75 and 76/77 is surely testament to an extraordinary mare.

Grey Way was racing then, Balmerino, Battle Heights, Copper Belt, March Legend, La Mer etc etc.

Speaking of La Mer, in Mark Taylor's book Century Of Champions this sentence was included "Successful over 1200m to 2400m, La Mer annexed 17 Group races and commands a place alongside Show Gate, Horlicks and Sunline as one of New Zealand's finest race mares since the Second World War.

Show Gate was a household name and she has streets with her name honouring her, rooms and even a Show Gate building at Riccarton where she is buried on the course.

Group racing did not start in NZ until August 1977 and two years later began in Australia.

I note the original poster has not responded again and perhaps he has realised his mistake and I trust you also take time The Apprentice to digest what has been said about an iconic horse.

Give Bob Skelton a call or Bruce Marsh who won the 1974 Telegraph Handicap on her and ask them. I can guarantee what their response would be.

everything you said above is so soo right..great to see you back Ted. How is the health????

[tasman man 742]

......is often closely linked with Showgate when in fact he only rode her a handful of starts.

Also stories about her usually say that her jockeys were often the 'Boys who rode her in work'.

This was certainly the case when she began racing ,with Michael Craig , but when weight ruled him out a variety of riders had their turn , eg RMarsh, Gwillets in north and a variety of young Christchurch jockeys eg the 'talented' DReed and others including Lzzzzz.

CBRamage got on at the right time ,'coasting' to many wins but he rarely rode her in work as he was based in Southland .

Bob Skelton rode some of Gordon's best horses[Cobble,Swan Queen and Minglow] when he began training in 60's ,but chose to ride Captain's Command ahead of Middy one day, so Gordon turned to JAMessent ,ARTelfer,RNMarsh and DNHadfield ,possibly MJSkelton.....then Bob Skelton moved to Auckland.

Andrew Telfer became an employee and helped prepare Middy to win NZ Cup ,in hands of GRHeaton ,another Canterbury rider.RNMarsh was kicked in head and unable to ride.

[Midget 4,489]

I cannot believe anyone would say that the freak is not worthy of Hall Of Fame Status.

Tell me of another horse that was feed ONCE A DAY,Got a rug after 5 wins,another trainer who was fined for the way she was presented in the birdcage,after she beat Count Kereu and Ichyead{excuse the spelling}

What about the day when Reon said she couldn't win with 100m to go at Cup Week,I think it was the Canterbury Gold Cup and that is when jockeys who didn't have a ride went out into the birdcage to watch her and I am sure it Guest Star that she ran past,To this day she is the only horse that has put a lump in my throat and a tear in my eye.She is more more worthy to be in the Hall OF Fame.

ps,does any remember the match race between Show Gate and Leliani,neither of them won,but not a great effort for her to travel from Mosgiel to Flemington and race against her 48 hours after arrival,one trained by a genius and the other trained by ?????

I clearly remember the first TV Racing programme called Turf Talk,hosted by Glynn Tucker and he was asked who was the best between La Mer and Show Gate,he said hard to separate them but he went for La Mer as in his opinion she was a better Sprinter,look at there records and La Mer was feed at least twice a day and would have had a rug from day one.What a joke.

[TOM(the other Molloy) 1,774]

I cannot believe anyone would say that the freak is not worthy of Hall Of Fame Status.

Tell me of another horse that was feed ONCE A DAY,Got a rug after 5 wins,another trainer who was fined for the way she was presented in the birdcage,after she beat Count Kereu and Ichyead{excuse the spelling}

What about the day when Reon said she couldn't win with 100m to go at Cup Week,I think it was the Canterbury Gold Cup and that is when jockeys who didn't have a ride went out into the birdcage to watch her and I am sure it Guest Star that she ran past,To this day she is the only horse that has put a lump in my throat and a tear in my eye.She is more more worthy to be in the Hall OF Fame.

ps,does any remember the match race between Show Gate and Leliani,neither of them won,but not a great effort for her to travel from Mosgiel to Flemington and race against her 48 hours after arrival,one trained by a genius and the other trained by ?????

I clearly remember the first TV Racing programme called Turf Talk,hosted by Glynn Tucker and he was asked who was the best between La Mer and Show Gate,he said hard to separate them but he went for La Mer as in his opinion she was a better Sprinter,look at there records and La Mer was feed at least twice a day and would have had a rug from day one.What a joke.

Sobeit was the horse she ran past that day I think Morty though she did win two Canterbury Gold Cups so it may have been the other she beat Sobeit in.

And while I cannot correct the spelling the horse you mentioned was pronounced yak-e-dar. It(the name) was Welsh I believe. He was a bloody good horse too

Clearly we need to make an allowance for 'The Apprentice' here - only it is an IQ allowance not a weight one. Like I said previously this ain't the comics

In that year's racing annual(1977) she was described by John Costello as the greatest mare ever to look through a bridle. I can neither remember nor even contemplate any other 'Champion' being asked to do half the things she was - in terms of switching distances - and brilliantly too. If GB Thomson could have lined her up in the Grand National he would have and I have no doubt whatsoever she would have won that too.

La Mer was brilliant but Show Gate was out of this world.

[The Apprentice 1]

Not sure about your ref to my IQ? Or is that another weak personal attack?

I have not said that SG was not a good horse. It's the HOF. Get it. It's an opinion re the HOF and whilst there will be plenty of arguments and opinions over the years re a horse's right to be in the HOF - that's fine. It's an opinion. Mine has not changed.

HOF should be only for the absolute elite and to compare SG to the Phar Laps is (in my opinion) stretching it. The Aussies have got it right. Not even Rough Habit can get in - despite his heroic deeds in Qld and that's it. Qld racing doesn't cut it unless it translates to form in the southern states. If Roughie had won the Cox Plate he might have made it. But the Qld G1's don't cut the mustard. Same as the Kurow form of SG has to be ignored. Her other performances were great but HOF? I think not. End of story so I will take my IQ, ignorance, arrogance, etc and not comment further on the NZ HOF. As for Ashoka? I know you think I am ignorant - that's what you say. But can you give us the history of the horse you say "was beaten by a head in the Cant Gold Cup"?. The horse you named was SOBEIT but I've never heard of it. PLease excuse my ignorance.

[tasman man 742]

Sobeit was the horse she ran past that day I think Morty though she did win two Canterbury Gold Cups so it may have been the other she beat Sobeit in.

And while I cannot correct the spelling the horse you mentioned was pronounced yak-e-dar. It(the name) was Welsh I believe. He was a bloody good horse too

Clearly we need to make an allowance for 'The Apprentice' here - only it is an IQ allowance not a weight one. Like I said previously this ain't the comics

In that year's racing annual(1977) she was described by John Costello as the greatest mare ever to look through a bridle. I can neither remember nor even contemplate any other 'Champion' being asked to do half the things she was - in terms of switching distances - and brilliantly too. If GB Thomson could have lined her up in the Grand National he would have and I have no doubt whatsoever she would have won that too.

La Mer was brilliant but Show Gate was out of this world.

...it was Sobeit and Guest Star , and RJSkelton verbally assisted CRamage in that race when he realised his saddle had slipped.

The second CGCup main opposition included top 3 yr-olds Silver Lad and Mayo Mellay.

Yak e Dar [Welsh] was spelt Iechyd.

La Mer certainly was an outstanding and versatile mare , and also dogged with bad luck , being galloped on in only 3200m start.

Not many Copenhagen ll horses won @ 2400m.

To Midget , the story re the lack of rug fine....if confirmed I will include it in my book/film I may make on the great mare's career.

I'll try and find you a role !!!

Glyn Tucker tried to buy Show Gate....how preposterous !!!

[Gruff 2,808]

Glyn Tucker would have nominated cobham to be inducted ! I remember when I was ten picking supreme glory to win the oaks and glynn made the comment 'i will jump off the grandstand if that wins' .