Trump 2,741 Report post Posted October 25, 2014 After Admire R's CC win and Adelaide's CP win, with no lead up starts like Aussie/Kiwi trainers do, you have to ask the question, how much better are they? Personally, I think they show that as far as Stayers go, they can train them so much better. No question! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBHunter 100 Report post Posted October 25, 2014 What intrigues me about the Japanese is that they arnt known as great stock-man yet are showing that in fact they are among the best in the world. They are also great thinkers, innovators, communicators and workers. The fact that they have a 1800m indoor hill climb gallop does indicate a dedication to building stamina and indeed selecting for it. In my experience in building stamina in a horse there is nothing that can compare with a decent sized hill or inclined treadmill. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berri 2,131 Report post Posted October 25, 2014 unfortunately much better Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zelda kratchanova 2 502 Report post Posted October 25, 2014 lol idoits bart cummings > any fuji or soaps dodgers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby3051 10,984 Report post Posted October 25, 2014 Bart was in another time... much has changed and the fact is they are better or have better horses one or the other... more and more big races will be heading north of the Equator from now on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trump 2,741 Report post Posted October 25, 2014 Bart still needs 5 starts and 10,000klm in his horses before a MC. The Japs and Europeans just arrive and no lead ups !! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruff 2,817 Report post Posted October 25, 2014 Their horses travel between 8 and 16 000 km Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portfolio 728 Report post Posted October 25, 2014 No doubt overseas horses have improved....and are still improving.... I just think that as far as stayers go....Aus and NZ are just not producing anything special. Look what Australasia will line up in Mel cup.....Piss poor horses. We all know that times for the race are not getting quicker.....they are carrying about the same weights...on the same track. Yet, these overseas nags come over, don't race for weeks...and bolt in??? Just a fact.....our stayers are shit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatura 121 Report post Posted October 25, 2014 Australia produced Kingston Rule. Still holds the best time for the race. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portfolio 728 Report post Posted October 25, 2014 Australia produced Kingston Rule. Still holds the best time for the race. Yep.....has been some great horses racing over the years....Diva winning all those cups was fantastic... But I am talking about the last 5-10 years? Best thing about overseas horses competing in Australia....Is the great horses that we see, because without those overseas raiders...that Mel cup field this year would be poor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baz (NZ) 1,722 Report post Posted October 25, 2014 Just post the stake money to Japan and Europe that'll save them coming down to collect .it. Surely it can't be good business for the Australian racing industry with all that cash leaving for the Northern Hemisphere never to be seen again or re-invested locally? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zelda kratchanova 2 502 Report post Posted October 25, 2014 Their horses travel between 8 and 16 000 km like shatfsbury lane did ? no ? but in a tiger moth ? and was cripple and nearly stil won fuji and the soapdodger trainers will NEVER win 12 melbourne cups and also bart had to train one battered potential hurdling horses from NZ mainly. seriously are you all idoits? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Roustoby 292 Report post Posted October 25, 2014 We dont breed a stayers anymore. Shot ourselves in the foot with the 2yo racing obsession Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baz (NZ) 1,722 Report post Posted October 25, 2014 We dont breed a stayers anymore. Shot ourselves in the foot with the 2yo racing obsession Blame Australia! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zelda kratchanova 2 502 Report post Posted October 25, 2014 We dont breed a stayers anymore. Shot ourselves in the foot with the 2yo racing obsession the kiwiis no? dr green and all those flying two years olds, no? its not working for them Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lindsay carston 81 Report post Posted October 25, 2014 No doubt these trainers are very good but our top trainers would measure up to anyone in the world.The bottom line is that the horses are superior to ours as has been shown in the last week.The Caulfield cup winner was top weight and three wide the entire and Adelaide covered more ground than Harold logan and these are not Japans or Europes best.Maurice Campbell rode Belmarino in the Hollywood gold cup in America and Balmarino was a NZ champion.maurice said every horse in the race was as good as him and the way they ran the race he couldn't keep up or was so far back by the time our jockeys get moving couldn't make up the ground.Also they have better training facilitys for training stayers.When I was in England I worked for a few months for a jumping trainer who had a 1400 metre up hill woodchip galloping track.we would trot for half an hour around the roads first then gallop up the hill,trot back down and gallop up again.We had one horse who won a 3 mile chase first up.From now on Australasia will be lucky to win any of the big races,mind you Chris waller now takes over the training of Adelaide so by the time he races again aussie will claim him THE TORCH 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdytdy 5,344 Report post Posted October 25, 2014 Good points Lindsay, especially regarding the uphill work put in by the Northern trainers and I note TB Hunter's comment re the uphill treadmill in Japan. This is the ground work of any endurance athlete. As an athlete I know the importance of hill work and ran the fire breaks of the Hutt Valley hills, Blue Mountains and Belmont Trig (highest point in Wellington) regularly. The strength that this work provided in distance races was vital. It appears in recent times with big barns that a lot of the Southern stayers now just come out and do their work on the flat only and wouldn't know what a hill is and struggle at the end of distance races. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdytdy 5,344 Report post Posted October 25, 2014 Still used by Anne and a few others to condition their stayers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
crustyngrizzly 1,703 Report post Posted October 25, 2014 Personally i think that the foreign horses are conditioned a lot better.Lots of walking and trotting and they don't break track records in training.Hill work is fine but you can't over do it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Roustoby 292 Report post Posted October 26, 2014 We are talking about the Australian group 1s the past 2 weeks arent we? Australian breeders have bred for speed to win slippers and blue diamonds etc. They breed what the market wants and the market wanted speedy 2yos. Thats why the stayers are thin on the ground. Its not rocket science. NZ have tried to copy with a $1 mil 2yo race in january. Breeders need to breed a different kind of horse now so buyers can get a karaka million winner. We put huge amounts of money into races for 2yos and people are scratching their heads why the europeans are winning the 2000m+ races. They breed to win classic races,thats why the Aussie sprinters clean them up at Royal Ascot Very simple really lecithin and hedley 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatura 121 Report post Posted October 26, 2014 We dont breed a stayers anymore. Shot ourselves in the foot with the 2yo racing obsession And why would Studs,selling Agents even Trainers to a certain extent want the industry breeding stayers,mainly. Afterall they rely on revenue and turnover to make their profits.The more horses they turnover the greater the profit.Numbers game. Also where are our staying races too few and far between.Where are those 4yo races of yesteryear. Stayers take more time to prepare and more skill. Where are the old Cutty Sark families, which now, may be too dour to foot it with the modern stayer.These old staying families have all but disappeared I still prefer staying horses but then I don't breed or race to satisfy someone else and there's no eftpos in the afterlife. hedley 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatura 121 Report post Posted October 26, 2014 Exactly my thinking Michael. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trump 2,741 Report post Posted October 26, 2014 David Hayes now has the setup if he can find the breed. But if you've never seen horses training at The Curragh, then you ain't seen nothin! Long undulating runs for miles and miles.......very impressive. Then there's Byerley Park, Otaki, Awapuni - no comparison. hedley 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tasman man 11 979 Report post Posted October 26, 2014 David Hayes now has the setup if he can find the breed. But if you've never seen horses training at The Curragh, then you ain't seen nothin! Long undulating runs for miles and miles.......very impressive. Then there's Byerley Park, Otaki, Awapuni - no comparison. Isn't it just a numbers and resources thing ??? The UK ,Japan and Aussie industries have the backing / support of many of the world's richest people ,hence the better facilities and access to the very best bloodlines.....we work off the crumbs and then many of our best bred youngsters head overseas. Unsure how many foals are born in NZ each year.....I seem to remember figures like 16,000 foals/horse in training in UK and Aussie , compared to 6000 foals in NZ ,less sales abroad to race. We shouldn't be slitting our wrists with recent results...afterall it is the first ever European trainer win in Cox Plate ,Silent Achiever did us proud......Adelaide now has a kiwi trainer [CWaller who seems to be travelling OK ,maybe he will get J. Mac to ride him !!!] And NZ was just nabbed in Caulfield cup. It's not all doom and gloom !!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBHunter 100 Report post Posted October 26, 2014 And why would Studs,selling Agents even Trainers to a certain extent want the industry breeding stayers,mainly. Afterall they rely on revenue and turnover to make their profits.The more horses they turnover the greater the profit.Numbers game. Also where are our staying races too few and far between.Where are those 4yo races of yesteryear. Stayers take more time to prepare and more skill. Where are the old Cutty Sark families, which now, may be too dour to foot it with the modern stayer.These old staying families have all but disappeared I still prefer staying horses but then I don't breed or race to satisfy someone else and there's no eftpos in the afterlife. Interestingly the best stayers of today and more so of the future will be dour horses, without a doubt. They run at one speed for 2 miles ( 12 sec furlongs). hedley 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
