greyhound pay day ?

[john legend]

I wonder who is subsidising the big payout to greyhounds on Sunday.over 180000 My guess is at least 100000 comes from harness racing and gallops.. !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Keneperu]

Dead right. Shame they didnt go back to racing around Marshland Domain with no T V coverage,in Canterbury anyway. The scourge of racing!

[tasman man]

12 hours ago, john legend said:

I wonder who is subsidising the big payout to greyhounds on Sunday.over 180000 My guess is at least 100000 comes from harness racing and gallops.. !!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think its the opposite to what you suggesting. ie the dogs subsidise Harness !

Last time I looked , the TAB took more bets on overseas than NZ racing and although NZ Harness wagering is higher than NZ dogs , betting on overseas dogs was twice that of  overseas Harness.

Yet the code funding was considerably more for Harness than the dogs .

One year quite recently ( 2017 ) Harness received $40 mill ( $30m for stakes ) ,the Dogs $22 mill ( $12m for stakes ).

Harness wagering was in a slump and has improved since.

In 2019 the Code payouts were Harness $45 mill and Dogs $25 mill.

[shodsie]

13 hours ago, john legend said:

I wonder who is subsidising the big payout to greyhounds on Sunday.over 180000 My guess is at least 100000 comes from harness racing and gallops.. !!!!!!!!!!!!!

what a own goal.....

there is no bigger sponsor of harness racing than greyhound racing......

 

[john legend]

T man the overseas betting in total is a separate pool and not relevant to nz betting. with 50 odd meeting x overseas andsay30 dog meetings every day)  sure it all adds up and dog racing has its place but do the sums on a meet with 180000 stakes for dog owners (great for them) but profit from turnover and sponsorship have allowed 80000 which I know is generous, so the other cost comes from  the tab or the good fairies !! You can add and subtract and talk of many things including the investment in new greyhound tracks. cf gallops/harness racing.but get back to today it just doesnt add up without help. (ps had a lot to do with wellington trots as treasurer/sec/manager and for my sins spent time with Joan Bates .)

[JJ Flash]

8 hours ago, john legend said:

T man the overseas betting in total is a separate pool and not relevant to nz betting. with 50 odd meeting x overseas andsay30 dog meetings every day)  sure it all adds up and dog racing has its place but do the sums on a meet with 180000 stakes for dog owners (great for them) but profit from turnover and sponsorship have allowed 80000 which I know is generous, so the other cost comes from  the tab or the good fairies !! You can add and subtract and talk of many things including the investment in new greyhound tracks. cf gallops/harness racing.but get back to today it just doesnt add up without help. (ps had a lot to do with wellington trots as treasurer/sec/manager and for my sins spent time with Joan Bates .)

Under the 2020 Racing Act the 3 codes and 2 independents namely  Racing NZ get the TAB payout and then decide who gets how much.

Its then up to the individual codes to decide what they do with such distributions. They alone decide at Board and Management level what stakes will be paid to clubs. Obviously each code has to deduct operational costs and decide payout levels. Some like the TB's have used improved payouts to improve balance sheets.

Every code has days where they know stakes will not be covered, no matter which code it is As such nobody is subsidizing any other code these days. Rest assured HRNZ are very concerned about export revenue, the Chair has raised it a number of times on their site.

[john legend]

Take your point JJ but today had no semblance of reality To see the win and place totals around 4 or 5000 level which could be trebled for fixed but allowing for huge deficit on Hot fav. winning the silver collar (tab showed some late bets of 10000 on fav.) It is at best irresponsible to justify the huge stakes. With the best intentions towards greyhounds they must have a serious look at what they are doing. I am aware the racing act makes the rules but the "cake" shrinks in total when there are small turnovers and huge losses in any of the  3 codes .It would be good  if income and expenditure on todays meeting could be published. 

[JJ Flash]

10 hours ago, john legend said:

I am aware the racing act makes the rules but the "cake" shrinks in total when there are small turnovers and huge losses in any of the  3 codes

Perhaps you can then explain how the TAB payout is a record 170 mio then if the clubs run losing meetings? .

The other point i would like readers to consider is why greyhound revenue/income is rising at a time when harness is declining. Loss leader meeting occcur all the time as bookies will never win all the time, just most of the time and usually around the 16% ROR

Thus future distributions must favor the Dogs over Harness. the reason for this is a whole other issue

[tasman man]

11 hours ago, john legend said:

Take your point JJ but today had no semblance of reality To see the win and place totals around 4 or 5000 level which could be trebled for fixed but allowing for huge deficit on Hot fav. winning the silver collar (tab showed some late bets of 10000 on fav.) It is at best irresponsible to justify the huge stakes. With the best intentions towards greyhounds they must have a serious look at what they are doing. I am aware the racing act makes the rules but the "cake" shrinks in total when there are small turnovers and huge losses in any of the  3 codes .It would be good  if income and expenditure on todays meeting could be published. 

What is your point ,and what you trying to prove here ?

Yesterdays races included a couple of Group 1's , with heats being held in both Islands to find the finalists.

I don't follow the dogs at all but I know the Duke of Edinburgh is considered one of the season's pinnacle races !

I also know that the dogs ,thru volume of races contribute well to the TAB's coffers and for some time have received far less of that contribution back ,especially when compared to Harness.

So your line of attack is baffling !

[john legend]

The point is Harness racing has cut high stakes eg. ak cup and nz cup in recent times to at least try to get a budget target in covid times etc. but the greyhounds increase theirs because it is relatively cheap to train a greyhound and run a meet with much lower costs and they can run many many more meetings and they appear to have very good representation on Racing boards  (good for them) A previous CEO of TAB (some time ago)said to me personally when I mentioned they were going to be a threat to harness racing stated they are simply polyfilla (filling in the gaps.) If you cant grasp this then I cannot help you anymore. 

[tasman man]

1 hour ago, john legend said:

The point is Harness racing has cut high stakes eg. ak cup and nz cup in recent times to at least try to get a budget target in covid times etc. but the greyhounds increase theirs because it is relatively cheap to train a greyhound and run a meet with much lower costs and they can run many many more meetings and they appear to have very good representation on Racing boards  (good for them) A previous CEO of TAB (some time ago)said to me personally when I mentioned they were going to be a threat to harness racing stated they are simply polyfilla (filling in the gaps.) If you cant grasp this then I cannot help you anymore. 

You not helping me John .

You started a thread .....only you know why .....and when asked to back up what you suggested ,you revert to hearsay from 30 to 40 years ago !

Greyhound racing going through some difficult times in Nz , but they still add good $$$$$ to the TAB's coffers .

Stakes per race reflect their popularity with punters  but IMO its good they have some Group races for good coin.

To follow up your opening post , maybe you could provide some 'facts' instead of anecdotal BS.

Clearly you irked that the Greyhound code contribute as much to the TAB and NZ Racing as your beloved Harness !

[john legend]

T Man you miss reality. the income v expenditure is basic business.there is no BS simple accounting .Greyhounds have only built and funded 1 facility  and relied on the generosity of harness racing and a rugby club for all others. I want them to be part of TAB but do not want favourable treatment given to them. this is the last comment I wish to make . 

[We're Doomed]

It's a long time since I had a bet on a dog race, and the last dog meeting I attended was at Hutt Park, but I do seem to recall that they had to make a contribution to the setting up of the TAB when they first got tote betting and they have been willing to fill all the gaps the other codes didn't want, such as Saturday nights for trots and sundays for gallops. If the income from overseas racing is distributed based on the codes share of domestic betting the dogs will benefit because they are happy to keep providing product whereas the gallops especially keep reducing the number of races and the number of meetings.

[Palliser]

19 hours ago, john legend said:

The point is Harness racing has cut high stakes eg. ak cup and nz cup in recent times to at least try to get a budget target in covid times etc. but the greyhounds increase theirs because it is relatively cheap to train a greyhound and run a meet with much lower costs and they can run many many more meetings and they appear to have very good representation on Racing boards  (good for them) A previous CEO of TAB (some time ago)said to me personally when I mentioned they were going to be a threat to harness racing stated they are simply polyfilla (filling in the gaps.) If you cant grasp this then I cannot help you anymore. 

I'm struggling to see what you are on about also, obviously you are concerned with the state of harness racing in this country and so you should be. But your above post basically answers your own question, the balance sheet favors the greyhounds far more than harness.

[john legend]

turnover and profit last sunday from betting (net  profit)did not get anywhere near sufficient to justify (190000 stake level  )  Palliser again I know you are struggling with this as you say .maybe you can explain where the 100000 plus shortfall comes from A clue dont say greyhounds are so profitable they can save up for relatively huge stakes.

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[We're Doomed]

14 minutes ago, john legend said:

turnover and profit last sunday from betting (net  profit)did not get anywhere near sufficient to justify (190000 stake level  )  Palliser again I know you are struggling with this as you say .maybe you can explain where the 100000 plus shortfall comes from A clue dont say greyhounds are so profitable they can save up for relatively huge stakes.

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Most high stakes races aren't profitable. The idea is to take a little bit from lots of smaller meetings to fund some aspirational races. Harness has only to look at the Race thing at Cambridge. I doubt if that did much turnover despite the stake. And I can't see all those tiny group race fields at Alex park generating much betting, and profit. Lots of the gallops feautures at Ellerslie would hardly be profitable either.

[JJ Flash]

17 hours ago, We're Doomed said:

If the income from overseas racing is distributed based on the codes share of domestic betting

It isn't

[We're Doomed]

4 hours ago, JJ Flash said:

It isn't

Thanks Flash. I have no idea how it all works these days. I think at one time it was based on the codes share of domestic turnover, which of course meant the gallops were disadvantaged as most off shore betting in those days was on the gallops.

[CeeMeNow]

Good evening, apologies to JJ for mistakenly insinuating he had made a wanker post on another thread last month, I have not been back to comment since.

The export betting figures up to the end of June last year were; T/B- $4.6m -  Greys- $4.5m   Harness - $1.3m , my understanding is that 3% of the actual overseas T/O is returned to the code that generates it, the above is the nett return to each code at June 30th last year.

[Palliser]

11 hours ago, john legend said:

turnover and profit last sunday from betting (net  profit)did not get anywhere near sufficient to justify (190000 stake level  )  Palliser again I know you are struggling with this as you say .maybe you can explain where the 100000 plus shortfall comes from A clue dont say greyhounds are so profitable they can save up for relatively huge stakes.

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Again I cannot see your logic, are you basing your argument on one meeting ??

[Palliser]

I'm afraid you need to realise harness is a distant 3rd in turnover. And that is sad for the industry 

[JJ Flash]

12 hours ago, CeeMeNow said:

Good evening, apologies to JJ for mistakenly insinuating he had made a wanker post on another thread last month, I have not been back to comment since.

The export betting figures up to the end of June last year were; T/B- $4.6m -  Greys- $4.5m   Harness - $1.3m , my understanding is that 3% of the actual overseas T/O is returned to the code that generates it, the above is the nett return to each code at June 30th last year.

Apology accepted

[We're Doomed]

On 6/14/2022 at 9:13 PM, CeeMeNow said:

Good evening, apologies to JJ for mistakenly insinuating he had made a wanker post on another thread last month, I have not been back to comment since.

The export betting figures up to the end of June last year were; T/B- $4.6m -  Greys- $4.5m   Harness - $1.3m , my understanding is that 3% of the actual overseas T/O is returned to the code that generates it, the above is the nett return to each code at June 30th last year.

That is quite surprising . So you are saying there is almost as much bet from NZ punters on Aussie greyhounds as gets bet on all the top class Saturday gallops in Oz, and the occasional midweek Tuesday in Nov? I know we bet on other countries as well, but I presume most of it is done on Aussie races given the time zone.

[Dissident]

12 hours ago, We're Doomed said:

That is quite surprising . So you are saying there is almost as much bet from NZ punters on Aussie greyhounds as gets bet on all the top class Saturday gallops in Oz, and the occasional midweek Tuesday in Nov? I know we bet on other countries as well, but I presume most of it is done on Aussie races given the time zone.

Could be something to do with odds of success purely for gambling purposes. I was told once by a savvy punter Aussie greyhounds are an easier way to try and turn a profit...good pools, and of course greyhounds have the smaller fields. Can't say it worked for me but then personally I'd rather bet on gallops any day. 

[CeeMeNow]

On 6/16/2022 at 6:57 PM, We're Doomed said:

That is quite surprising . So you are saying there is almost as much bet from NZ punters on Aussie greyhounds as gets bet on all the top class Saturday gallops in Oz, and the occasional midweek Tuesday in Nov? I know we bet on other countries as well, but I presume most of it is done on Aussie races given the time zone.

No, if I am interpreting it correctly this is the profit returned to the codes from overseas (mainly Australia), betting on NZ races with an overseas  Betting company, this would include any Kiwis who bet on NZ races on an overseas platform.

This is one avenue of considerable funds for the greyhounds, as to the original thread post.

Every month the TAB post the top 10 individual  race T/O's, in April they were all gallops, including 4 races from Randwick, I presume that 3% of the T/O on those 4 races was paid to the Aussie code.