Glen Hunt

Box Draw Policy needs changing

45 posts in this topic

The Greyhound Industry is constantly under fire re the welfare of these lovely creatures, this is greatly due to the so reported high injury/euthanasia numbers and people like Mr. Cross and his small posse of sheep.

I believe that we can reduce the Injury numbers on our race tracks with a simple yet affective change in the way Greyhounds are allocated their box draw.

 

Let's be a bit proactive instead of waiting for a repeat of NSW.

 

The number one concern for Greyhound Racing is for the Greyhound's Welfare, this is after all what drives the negativeness and also the abandoned Race Meetings, so I have a proposal I'd like to share with you all and hopefully get a lot of support so we can submit it to the association.

 

99% of Races are decided at box rise, why is that ?

 

Correct, quick out means out of trouble, trouble ? What trouble, oh you mean the 3 dogs crashing to the rail from out wide and the dog in box 2 crashing to the outside, that doesn't happen that often does it ? I watched the last 7 race replays of my own dogs and it happened in each and every race, so why hasn't this been addressed ?

 

I have a solution, as I see it there are 8 types of dogs that come out of the boxes, Fast, average & Slow are 3 of them, what of the other 5 ?

1 – Rail Crasher

2 - Railer

3 – Holds it's own line

4 – Wide Runner

5 – Wide Crasher

 

So why would you put a rail crasher into box 7 or 8 ?

Because it is a random box draw (Don't get me started on the so called random box draw)

 

Surely most of you can relate to me when I say that it is sad to watch a straight running dog start shying off the first bend as during it's races it has constantly been bashed from box rise to the first corner, I know of such dogs been questioned by the stipes for failing to pursue the lure, no, it's scared of been checked.

 

Solution is that each and every dog is assessed by the Stipes and allocated a Race Behaviour based on the 5 I listed, then when it comes to “Box Draw” those Greyhounds allocated a class 1 would be drawn to the inside boxes and those with a Class 5 to the outside boxes, this would depend on how many of each Class there was, example would be if you had 2 x Class 1, 1 x Class 2, 2 x Class 3, 2 x Class 4 & 1 x Class 5 allocated for a race, the Draw would look like this :-

 

Box 1 – Rail Crasher

Box 2 – Rail Crasher

Box 3 - Railer

Box 4 - Holds it's own line

Box 5 - Holds it's own line

Box 6 – Wide Runner

Box 7 – Wide Runner

Box 8 – Wide Crasher

 

 

The 2 Rail Crashers would be Random Drawn Box 1 or 2, the Railer the next available Box which in this case is Box 3, etc...

 

That is an example but hopefully you can see the picture, This would GREATLY reduce the un-required thumping and banging immediately on box rise not to mention it would put the Greyhound in it's preferred position for the first corner thus reducing it's chances of been injured or falling.

 

The draw back you say is what about the reserves ?

That is true but that would have to be the exception.

 

A lot would still have to be looked at like the allocation, it would have to have some input from Trainers and the Stipes and not necessarily the Trainer of the Greyhound, other Trainers should be able to nominate a dog for a class but after consideration and video footage etc... the Stipes would allocate the Race Behaviour.

 

This type of change would greatly benefit Greyhound Racing :-

 

1 – Reduce the risk of Race Injury

2 – The Greyhound's Form maybe be greatly improved

3 – The Race Results would be more predictable

4 – The Trainer would benefit from having the dog race from a favourable draw

5 – The Punter would be more inclined to place bigger/more bets on the Greyhound's

6 – It would be a positive move towards the public and Owners

 

I welcome all thoughts, comments and even criticism, I don't imply that this will stop the checks & injuries that happen in our races but it would greatly reduce them.

Thanks for reading this far :)

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That's an obvious problem but the inside draws would only be allocated to the category of dog, you won't get your dog classed as a 'Rail Crasher' if it holds it's line or runs wide, if there are no classified railers in the field then the inside boxes would be available to the next category and so on

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I do see your point and it has its merits...however, what about the dogs that are showing these tendencies due to undetected injuries ie: hip support, tricep and hock soreness? Your one of the small honest trainer's mate, this sort of rule would be exploited hugely by the "big boys" and everyone else would suffer the consequences...its dog racing and theres no certainties no matter how good the dogs or the draws in my opinion...battle on and the luck gods will prevail!!

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23 minutes ago, Slim Shady said:

I do see your point and it has its merits...however, what about the dogs that are showing these tendencies due to undetected injuries ie: hip support, tricep and hock soreness? Your one of the small honest trainer's mate, this sort of rule would be exploited hugely by the "big boys" and everyone else would suffer the consequences...its dog racing and theres no certainties no matter how good the dogs or the draws in my opinion...battle on and the luck gods will prevail!!

 

Thanks for your kind words, and I do agree, exploitation is a greedy mans gold mine and there is no doubt that things will be tried to gain that 'golden box 1', I have 2 dogs at the moment whom I'd be better off scratching if they drew box 1 in a 318m so I don't see the point in placing your dog in an unfavourable box.

As for the un-detecated injuries, that's another whole subject I'd love to cover but would like to try push this one first, this is where between the Trainers, Stipes and Vets and race history that an adnominally should be detected and the Greyhound in question be treated as such. But as for exploiting an injury to gain a false favourable box draw for that dog won't work, when/if the dog is back sound it won't like it's new race line and would be forced to be re-catergorized if it hadn't already been reported by other Trainers etc...

The way I see it is that all Greyhounds would be automatically categorised as a "Straight Runner - Holds it's Line" and would then be up to the Stipes to change this through discussion with the Trainer and Vet and Video Footage as an idea.

Yes it is dog racing and as you said there are no certainties but at least with this solution some of us can stop thinking the first thought of "Hope he/She comes off Sound" to "might have a chance at a placing today" :)

 

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5 minutes ago, GONSTA said:

As a punter and greyhound enthusiast i'd love to see 6 dog fields, doubt it will ever happen as the more starters per race = higher turnover. 

Yes exactly, in a 6 dog field there is less interference there for a better punting perspective, same can happen with 8 dog fields if the 8 dogs were drawn in a more favourable box, without the punters there would be no racing, something a lot of people forget.

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2 minutes ago, come on ref said:

Some thing  has to be tried, how many fallers happen on the first corners because certain dogs railing or going wide. Need to be at least seen to be trying to keep our dogs safe and this will work.

Thanks for the positiveness, I believe this will work too, just need to convince the right people to atlas give it a try, even have a club put their hand up to trial it, what a dream that would be

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1 minute ago, come on ref said:

I've tried to bring it up years ago it was claimed to be hard and what if there's 2 railers but box2 is better than 8. I've seen UK have 6 dogs and seeding so it can be done.

Thanks for your comment, yes I had also talked of this subject for the past couple of years to a couple of Trainers including a Stipe but with recent whispers I heard, I thought it was time to put it to the public and see if we can get some action on it.

As for it been too hard, I don't see were the problem would lye, it's a simple computer program change/upgrade, for those of you that remember my dog racing game at Hawera in the '90s, I built that, I write computer code and software so trust me, it's not hard, unless they use those bumbling idiots that wrote the code for the so called random box draw.

As for your scenario of 2 Railers, they would be random drawn in the 1st 2 boxes available, assuming there is no 'Rail Crasher', then they would get either Box 1 or Box 2 but if there is a 'Rail Crasher' then they would be drawn either Box 2 or Box 3 and so on until all the criteria was met.

Yes, the UK system works and it works well, it can here with 8 dogs if this system was implemented or at the worst tried.

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I know what you mean Glen. I have said it a few time to both you & Shardae that 2 of your dogs need the 8 box because they run wide but they keep getting the inside draw. Granted at the moment they are missing the jump & can avoid the crashing but when they do start to jump with the field they will get caught up in the mess at the start and/or at the corner.

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Often the dogs in trouble are the same ones every week. Not so much because they always go left, right or straight ahead but just because they are trouble prone just like a lot of humans. We have had more than our share and one recent one is Ez Ferretti, if you put him in any box he just about always ended up in the wrong place. Most often it is because they cannot trap fast enough to put themselves in the race but just think if you turned all the bad beginners into equals of the fastest beginner there would be even more trouble. With all due respect Glen it is not a good idea qouting the dogs you are racing currently as from what I have seen of them if you were allowed to pick the draw for them each start you are likely to get the same results we have a few like that as well.

   Glen it cannot run like a computer program because all of the criteria you list are subjective. Everyone has a say in your formula and you can guarantee in more than half of the dogs there will be differences of opinion. Plus they could change each week depending on circumstances. The ones that it may work for are the few that continually crash one way or the other and to cater for them you will inconvenience many others

   I have watched 6 dogs UK seeded racing live and you still get interferance. People in the UK moan about the injustices of their system as often as we do about ours.

If you take this line of thought to it's logicall conclusions the right decision would be to race each dog seperately and then decide first second And third on speed alone. No need for trapping ability, track skills, courage and cleverness, so would you really decide the best dog. The punters would love the ease of selection but I'll bet you would quickly have no one punting at all

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4 hours ago, Gary Sharp said:

I know what you mean Glen. I have said it a few time to both you & Shardae that 2 of your dogs need the 8 box because they run wide but they keep getting the inside draw. Granted at the moment they are missing the jump & can avoid the crashing but when they do start to jump with the field they will get caught up in the mess at the start and/or at the corner.

Gary, That does not make sense, the dogs need box 8 even though they are too slow out to be affected by the box draw.

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I have one that holds her line and from 3 starts has drawn 7 twice and 8. Has been bashed at 1st bend all 3 times and now has 3 lasts and will struggle to get starts or will become field shy. She holds her line and would love to see her get a fair chance. The other one runs to the rail and has had 2 box 1's and a 2 for her 3 starts but yesterday got slammed into the rail by 2 dogs coming across on to her. We have been wanting them to seed the dogs for years but has always been put in the too hard basket. You have my support for sure Glen

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Some good thoughts. However we need to test the loop-lure which keeps the dogs out in the middle of the track. Works well at Wanganui at present, at Gawler SA and GRV are rolling it out at every track in their State. I am sure we will notice a huge difference in the number of crashes and injuries. My dogs have had plenty! Not sure why GRNZ are being so slow about getting a couple of the lures for each track here.

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52 minutes ago, jimmyintheruck said:

Some good thoughts. However we need to test the loop-lure which keeps the dogs out in the middle of the track. Works well at Wanganui at present, at Gawler SA and GRV are rolling it out at every track in their State. I am sure we will notice a huge difference in the number of crashes and injuries. My dogs have had plenty! Not sure why GRNZ are being so slow about getting a couple of the lures for each track here.

They are awful... tried it up at auckland trial day and several trainers did not want it back. It causes its fare share of problems in aus as well

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7 hours ago, GOM said:

Often the dogs in trouble are the same ones every week. Not so much because they always go left, right or straight ahead but just because they are trouble prone just like a lot of humans. We have had more than our share and one recent one is Ez Ferretti, if you put him in any box he just about always ended up in the wrong place. Most often it is because they cannot trap fast enough to put themselves in the race but just think if you turned all the bad beginners into equals of the fastest beginner there would be even more trouble. With all due respect Glen it is not a good idea qouting the dogs you are racing currently as from what I have seen of them if you were allowed to pick the draw for them each start you are likely to get the same results we have a few like that as well.

   Glen it cannot run like a computer program because all of the criteria you list are subjective. Everyone has a say in your formula and you can guarantee in more than half of the dogs there will be differences of opinion. Plus they could change each week depending on circumstances. The ones that it may work for are the few that continually crash one way or the other and to cater for them you will inconvenience many others

   I have watched 6 dogs UK seeded racing live and you still get interferance. People in the UK moan about the injustices of their system as often as we do about ours.

If you take this line of thought to it's logicall conclusions the right decision would be to race each dog seperately and then decide first second And third on speed alone. No need for trapping ability, track skills, courage and cleverness, so would you really decide the best dog. The punters would love the ease of selection but I'll bet you would quickly have no one punting at all

Yes I agree that there is still going to be 'Trouble Makers' and I'm not claiming to magically stop all instances of race checks, I can drag 2 dogs together over a 250m straight and they still bump each other all over the park, this is something that will never change with Greyhound Racing.

What the main point of this is to 'Reduce the risk of injury at box rise' and to help put the dogs into a more favorable racing line for the first corner also to 'Reduce the risk of injury and falling', you are still going to get instance of checking from the boxes to the finish line, but with this system the checks may not be as severe.

Yes you also require 'Luck' (something I haven't had for a long time), lots of 'Luck' is hugely dependent on the box draw of all 8 runners, you also need some 'Luck' in the running, don't you think ?

As for quoting the dogs I'm currently racing at the moment, I actually don't see where I had done that unless you are refering to me watching the last 7 race replays, this was to see the behavior of all

the dogs from box rise, head on and maybe everyone should do it, you'll see some very bad body twists from several dogs.

I'm not using this as an excuse for my own kennel but now that you have mentioned it, just watch 'Scott No Value's' last 5 races, head on from the boxes, and then you tell me if the dogs in all 5 races were drawn to my proposal, that he still wouldn't of had a chance.

 

As for the 2nd of the 2 Gary mentioned, he's slow out, a wide runner and only has 1 gear, a check stops him in his tracks, has happened every one of his 14 starts, I have no excuses for him, doesn't mean I should stop racing him but I'm not going to quote these 2 as an example for my proposal, it's not about trying to win a race, I'd just buy Aussie dogs to achieve that, it's about the welfare of the sport and trying to do what we can to improve it.

 

As for it not been a computer program, how do you think the draw is currently done ?

I never said we would 'Pick our own box', and a dog's graded race behavior for box preference isn't something that would be able to be changed week in and week out, we've all seen them and we've all been affected by them, how many times do the Trainers see a dog drawn to the outside of them cringe knowing that his charge is going to be smacked down to the rail, it's these types of dog's that need preferential draws and yes of course it's going to inconvenience others, but not to the severeness it is currently by leaving them get drawn were they affect all 7 other runners.

 

The grading wouldn't be a “My dog loves the rail so I need to be drawn box 1”, it needs a proper inspection to correctly access it, forgive me but I can't see how this is so hard for some to understand.

 

As for individual time trials to determine the placings, sorry but isn't that been a bit silly, the tree huggers would've shut the sport down well before anything like that happens.

 

The punters would love to bet more based on the fact that there 4 legged ticket has drawn favorably and the odds of it been knocked out of contention at box rise has dropped due to the fact the 'Bad Doggies' have drawn were they can cause minimal damage, this isn't something I woke to yesterday morning, I have discussed this for the past couple of years with Trainers, a Stipe, Owners and Punters, the Punters were the proof in the pudding.

 

Note I said “Minimal”, I don't claim it will stop it.

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2 hours ago, shelley said:

yes its a good point after box 45545454 our two girls get box 2 and lo both box 1 dogs come out and Bang right

This may seem a very odd question but I do have some logic behind asking, what is the first letter of your dogs names that are constantly drawing box 4 and 5, also have they been racing in basically exactly the same field of runners from week to week? Thanks.

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5 hours ago, twirly berly said:

Not sure if it's been mentioned but how do.reserves fit in for seeded races?  If they gt box 1 and they need 8 it will cause chaos for the box 2 and realy not help the idea of seeding at all

Yes I had briefly mentioned it but that is an exception to the rule we would have to live with, the same would go for maidens or young dogs rushing through the grades, a race behaviour pattern would need to be established before the greyhound would be given a preferential status so we would still expect to see bad racing lines produced in the lower grades until all the dogs had a suitable status, thus been said, it could be noted by the Stipes in the qualifying race to observe a severe crasher and allocate it with it's deserved Status based on the one run then re-visit after a few Races if required.

There are a lot of scenarios and unfortunately we can't cater for nor please everyone, sometimes people forget that it is the dog on track that goes around.

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