Breeding Numbers

[lamour 673]

Sad to hear that numbers have fallen by 10% again this season.   I would have thought with the likes of Woodlands,  Alabar,  Breckon & Lincoln farms as well as others being active the numbers would have bottomed out by now.   Will be interesting to see if the pacers have dropped by more than the trotters.  I wonder if one of the problems is that to get a good price at the sales for pacers you need a yearling by one of only 3 or 4 stallions.  Trotters seem to be more diverse in that regard. 

[Nelli 434]

We need more owners! As an owner/breeder myself, I often look at the collection of fellow owners gathered before a race and most are 65+. Our numbers are dwindling and are not being replaced by sufficient younger people. Fewer potential owners = lower returns for those trying to sell nice mid-range yearlings. Good on trainers and studs that put together well-run syndicates /partnerships as that is a great way to introduce new owners to the game.

A big plus for breeding trotters is that fillies are just as (or even more) competitive as colts when racing as juveniles, and a well performed trotting mare usually does well in the broodmare paddock (her genes may be more important than the stallion). However, as Victoria is the only Aussie state big on trotters and historically in NZ trotters have raced for less money than pacers, it is not very profitable to breed trotting yearlings for the sales as on average, trotters sell for less than pacers. Therefore most trotters are bred to be raced by their breeders and that may help keep stallion diversity and foal numbers up. 

[lamour 673]

25 minutes ago, Nelli said:

We need more owners! As an owner/breeder myself, I often look at the collection of fellow owners gathered before a race and most are 65+. Our numbers are dwindling and are not being replaced by sufficient younger people

In days gone bye a lot of farmers had 2 or 3 horses they bred themselves & sometimes trained.  That’s not as common now.   Most owners, especially the younger ones can only afford a small percentage in a horse.  It’s great they’re in syndicates but we probably need 10 times  as many owners than we did in the past to race the same amount of horses. 

[Nelli 434]

Just had a look at 23/24 breeding stats and it makes dire reading. 1296 pacing mares served down from 1486 the previous year (12.8% decrease).  493 trotting mares served  down from 597 in 22/23 (17.4% decrease). And these figures are just mares served, not foals on the ground. 

[lamour 673]

That doesn’t seem to tally with the article I read where the numbers served were down about 10%.   Either way it’s disappointing 

[MisterEd 332]

1 hour ago, lamour said:

That doesn’t seem to tally with the article I read where the numbers served were down about 10%.   Either way it’s disappointing 

Probably because the people running the show are trying to put a positive spin on the numbers because their heads are on the chopping block.

In reality the numbers paint a bleak picture of an industry in freefall and none of the current leadership knows how to get it going in a positive direction. 

[Nelli 434]

1 hour ago, lamour said:

That doesn’t seem to tally with the article I read where the numbers served were down about 10%.   Either way it’s disappointing 

Relooked at the data in the article link. I was adding up the stallion services (did make a couple of errors) whereas if you look at mares served there was a 10.3% decline. Some mares are served multiple times which accounts for the services being greater number 

[2Piper 408]

Wonder how much of the BIS money was not used. As someone that was eligible this season but because HRNZ changed the conditions that's one more mare not served.  How many others  ?

I had plans for going to Bling It On or For A Reason for that mare.

Have started the weaning process with my Piping Hot General x Hera Thunder (Spirit Of Zeus) filly. Photo Below.

 

 

[lamour 673]

1 hour ago, 2Piper said:

As someone that was eligible this season but because HRNZ changed the conditions

Sorry to hear that.  As the part owner of a race mare I like the idea of earning credits towards a stud fee when my mare places in a mares or fillies race.  It will definitely encourage me to be involved in breeding from her when she retires.   Only thing about the scheme is it will take a good few years to take effect. 

[Keneperu 362]

18 hours ago, lamour said:

In days gone bye a lot of farmers had 2 or 3 horses they bred themselves & sometimes trained.  That’s not as common now.   Most owners, especially the younger ones can only afford a small percentage in a horse.  It’s great they’re in syndicates but we probably need 10 times  as many owners than we did in the past to race the same amount of horses. 

Exactly right. Will be interesting after this year's overall disastrous  yearling sales see how many more mares are not going to stud next season. Re the farmers with 2 or 3 mares in the back paddock they were the life blood of the sport who in general didn't worry about selling yearlings but trained them thereselves.

Would be interesting getting stats on trainer numbers compared to 20 or 30 years ago.

[MisterEd 332]

An article arrived in my email from the Harnesslink insider today saying HRNZ for quite a number of years had allocated just 0.002% of its $40M+ annual budget to breeding.

Sad if true.

[2Piper 408]

Breaking in cost have risen also, wouldn't get much change out of $3k .

In the event of  more breeding there has to be money for this as well. We don't  get stats from HQ on wastage  Maybe a subsidy to the next horse they breed goes to the breeder generated from a previous horse that has qualified, 

Remember seeing a report years ago showing and indicating that the majority of horses qualify at the age of 4. Is this still the case or are these horse not persevered with anymore ?

 

 

 

 

[CeeMeNow 192]

On 3/5/2024 at 8:00 PM, lamour said:

That doesn’t seem to tally with the article I read where the numbers served were down about 10%.   Either way it’s disappointing 

The article states that the number of mares served was 1758, compared to the previous years 1966

An article a year ago by Brad Reid said that the 2022/23  "Individual"  mares served was 1857, this is 109 less than the figure stated by the acting CEO, this leads me to believe that they are including multiple services , rather than the Individual mares and their 20223/24 figure could be over stated by more than 100.

If you take 100 off the 1758, then divide by a 72% live foal rate, you get   1194 foals!

[lamour 673]

8 minutes ago, CeeMeNow said:

The article states that the number of mares served was 1758, compared to the previous years 1966

An article a year ago by Brad Reid said that the 2022/23  "Individual"  mares served was 1857, this is 109 less than the figure stated by the acting CEO, this leads me to believe that they are including multiple services , rather than the Individual mares and their 20223/24 figure could be over stated by more than 100.

If you take 100 off the 1758, then divide by a 72% live foal rate, you get   1194 foals!

[eljay 1,720]

Soon be a job for the one arm man 

[Nelli 434]

On 3/6/2024 at 9:08 AM, 2Piper said:

 

On 3/6/2024 at 11:06 AM, lamour said:

Sorry to hear that.  As the part owner of a race mare I like the idea of earning credits towards a stud fee when my mare places 

The big problems with the new f&m bonus scheme are: 1) by restricting the f&m bonus to f&m races, trotting mares and those competing successfully against the boys week after week are largely excluded and the biggest beneficiaries are the black type fillies winning the heats and finals of the age Group races; 2) there is a big regional bias as southern clubs are more proactive;  3) as only paid out when the mare goes to stud, the bonuses earned by a current filly mightn't be able to claimed for another 5+ years if she continues racing till a 7yo. This won't help our current crisis.

As for paying breeders $1000s retrospectively for their decision to go to an NZ stallion years ago, the less said the better.

IMO, a simpler approach would be to give every mare served by a registered stallion a $500 service subsidy. It would have immediate impact for the next breeding season. There would be less paperwork, a mare could get it yearly, and it would proportionally benefit most the breeders going to cheaper stallions (many of these are NZ bred). A plus for HRNZ would be that there would be no liabilities stretching out into the future and it would be simple to increase if seen imperative to incentivise breeders even further.

[lamour 673]

24 minutes ago, Nelli said:

 

You make a lot of valid points Nelli but I’m not sure for me that $500 subsidy would encourage me to breed a mare.  If I collect say $3k over a few years that would definitely incentivise me to get involved.    Maybe HRNZ should look at making all trotting races eligible, I get that they have less F&M racers than the pacers.

[Nelli 434]

1 hour ago, lamour said:

You make a lot of valid points Nelli but I’m not sure for me that $500 subsidy would encourage me to breed a mare.  If I collect say $3k over a few years that would definitely incentivise me to get involved.    Maybe HRNZ should look at making all trotting races eligible, I get that they have less F&M racers than the pacers.

Agree $3k would incentivise me too but the main horses likely to earn that much are the black type pacers that will be bred from anyhow. The majority of other recipients to date are from maiden pacing f&m races and you can only win one of those. The nice mares in the middle that race successfully in mixed sex fields, the very mares we would want to be our future broodmares, are mostly missing out. Unless there is a nationwide shift by clubs to program more races for the "middle" mares (difficult unless do hcp stands) or the criteria are changed to include all winners ($$ would have to change), the scheme will mainly make the rich, richer.

[lamour 673]

11 hours ago, Nelli said:

Unless there is a nationwide shift by clubs to program more races for the "middle" mares (difficult unless do hcp stands) or

Very true.  Ideally that would be great but the problem is there may not be enough horses going around to make up those fields.  Perhaps a better solution as you suggest is to apply the credit to all races.  It would probably mean lowering the credit in each race but would involve a greater number of mares gaining credits which is what needs to happen.

[2Piper 408]

On 3/7/2024 at 8:13 PM, lamour said:

You make a lot of valid points Nelli but I’m not sure for me that $500 subsidy would encourage me to breed a mare.  If I collect say $3k over a few years that would definitely incentivise me to get involved.    Maybe HRNZ should look at making all trotting races eligible, I get that they have less F&M racers than the pacers.

Have you seen the article  11th March written by the NZSBA.

It outlined a proposal for a $2000 subsidy for breeding a mare ( up to 3 mares ) worth $2000 each but the proposal was considered too late to implement and costs..

I don't  have the ability to copy and paste it on here for a full read.

Hopefully someone here has recieved it by email and can do so.

It also outlined the NZ bred bonus which it was not a great supporter of, but I think it is a good scheme. The fillies and mares bonus scheme needs a tweak in my view. The 2yo bonus is good.

Seeing the article has made me determine that they are going to excelerate the small breeders demise.

We are down to about 50 or 60 stallions , genetically breeding into an ever decreasing circle compared to the 89's and 90's when there was over 100.

[Value Bell 253]

Are stallion fees to high?

[lamour 673]

Cheaper fees would definitely encourage breeders especially if the top tier stallions were less expensive.  On the flip side of that is that Bettors Delight was always expensive but served full books. 

[lamour 673]

On 3/7/2024 at 10:11 PM, Nelli said:

Agree $3k would incentivise me too but the main horses likely to earn that much are the black type pacers that will be bred from anyhow

That’s a good point. Perhaps mares that  win over $150k in a 3 year period could forgo their bonus credits as they have won enough money to pay for a few stud fees and their progeny are going to be reasonably sort after. That would leave more money for the mares that have more moderate earnings.

[unhinged 39]

1 hour ago, lamour said:

That’s a good point. Perhaps mares that  win over $150k in a 3 year period could forgo their bonus credits as they have won enough money to pay for a few stud fees and their progeny are going to be reasonably sort after. That would leave more money for the mares that have more moderate earnings.

I struggle to see how breeding more horse's solves the problem of not enough horse's racing. Does the recent sales not tell you there simply isn't enough demand.  Unfortunately promoting ownership has been missing for a number of year's.  Where is our marketing?

[Nelli 434]

6 hours ago, 2Piper said:

 

We are down to about 50 or 60 stallions , genetically breeding into an ever decreasing circle compared to the 89's and 90's when there was over 100.

Back in the 1960s people were worried about the dominance of Adios!  Breeders always try to breed to the best to the best and the marked improvements in times, conformation and gait that  I've seen myself since I started going to the trots seem to confirm the benefits have outweighed the negatives to date. And now we have access to frozen semen which for the trotters has opened up a heap more in terms of out crosses/genetic diversity.  Also, I've just checked out our copy of the 1998/1999 Sires Register and there was only 1 more registered stallion than in 2023/24. So as a breeder, stallion choice is not a worry to me. I worry more about where the new owners are going to come from to make it worth breeding in the first place.