New Senior Hanidcapper required

[We're Doomed 4,875]

18 minutes ago, Leggy said:

Please don't feel you have to reply, but FYI it was Brett Scelley a decade ago who told me that he needed at least an 8-9kg spread to effectively handicap within the rating bands. That was at a meeting in Petone because NZTR had asked me to analyse the impact of the handicapping changes that had occurred following the Mark Webbey review a couple of years earlier, which we did pro bono.

What we found then pretty much concurred with his thinking. This from the summary of that report.

"The analysis clearly shows both that higher weighted horses are significantly outperforming lower weighted ones, and that females are significantly out performing males."

My current data says that the situation has worsened if anything. Not a great way to create competitive racing that will build wagering revenue.

Only very tenuously related to the subject, but I have noticed that very few trainers seem to use the benchmark conditions of the current class system. If you put a 67 into a 65 benchmark race with a 4k claimer you can be incredibly well off at the weights, and gives a bit of scope to race over a preferred distance and in weaker company, yet seldom seems to be used.

[Insider 3,973]

19 minutes ago, Leggy said:

Please don't feel you have to reply, but FYI it was Brett Scelley a decade ago who told me that he needed at least an 8-9kg spread to effectively handicap within the rating bands. That was at a meeting in Petone because NZTR had asked me to analyse the impact of the handicapping changes that had occurred following the Mark Webbey review a couple of years earlier, which we did pro bono.

What we found then pretty much concurred with his thinking. This from the summary of that report.

"The analysis clearly shows both that higher weighted horses are significantly outperforming lower weighted ones, and that females are significantly out performing males."

My current data says that the situation has worsened if anything. Not a great way to create competitive racing that will build wagering revenue.

Actually I agree with your summary.

About 20+ years ago I had a good quality little mare who when carrying a low weights under the wide spread  range of the time, won a Great Easter Hcp, carrying 50kg, ran 2nd beaten a head in the Stewards Hcp carrying 51kg and 4th in the Railway Hcp carrying 51kg 

I am certain that with today's compressed weights' she couldn't have done that..

[We're Doomed 4,875]

5 minutes ago, Insider said:

Actually I agree with your summary.

About 20+ years ago I had a good quality little mare who when carrying a low weights under the wide spread  range of the time, won a Great Easter Hcp, carrying 50kg, ran 2nd beaten a head in the Stewards Hcp carrying 51kg and 4th in the Railway Hcp carrying 51kg 

I am certain that with today's compressed weights' she couldn't have done that..

Used to be some Auck Cup winners who got in with no weight as well. That used to be the trainer's art, now with set weights and penalties most don't seem to bother too much about that art.

[Leggy 4,096]

19 minutes ago, We're Doomed said:

Only very tenuously related to the subject, but I have noticed that very few trainers seem to use the benchmark conditions of the current class system. If you put a 67 into a 65 benchmark race with a 4k claimer you can be incredibly well off at the weights, and gives a bit of scope to race over a preferred distance and in weaker company, yet seldom seems to be used.

I'm not sure how you get 67 into a 65. Are there BM65s again?

[Insider 3,973]

7 minutes ago, Leggy said:

I'm not sure how you get 67 into a 65. Are there BM65s again?

There is one showing on Sires Produce Day.

[Blaird 131]

J SWAP CONTRACTORS 1200

Stakes:40000 NZ

Class:Rating 65 Benchmark*

Distance:1200 METRES

Rail:Out 4.5m From 1000 To 400, Remainder Out 1.5m

Option Numbers:FFWIN: 205, FFPLC: 1205

[Leggy 4,096]

13 minutes ago, Insider said:

There is one showing on Sires Produce Day.

Quite right. I'm behind the times. So, fair point WD.

[Pete Lane 640]

I seem to remember a two year old called Weenell running in a WFA at Trentham carrying around 46kg with Noel Eastwood aboard. I think it was the North Island Challenge Stakes. I could be wrong on the exact weight.

[Muzzaman 62]

4 minutes ago, Pete Lane said:

I seem to remember a two year old called Weenell running in a WFA at Trentham carrying around 46kg with Noel Eastwood aboard. I think it was the North Island Challenge Stakes. I could be wrong on the exact weight.

She carried 44.25 Pete. Her stablemate did the same the following year. Both trained by Syd Brown at Woodville and ridden by Noel Eastwood.

[Pete Lane 640]

Actually it won. Link is an interesting article on Noel.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/racing-little-man-cracked-a-big-whip/AGYACSQV4RYXC7CUE4FA7O4TRU/

[Pete Lane 640]

Just now, Muzzaman said:

She carried 44.25 Pete. Her stablemate did the same the following year. Both trained by Syd Brown at Woodville and ridden by Noel Eastwood.

Jockey weighed 39kg!

[nomates 3,609]

7 minutes ago, Pete Lane said:

I seem to remember a two year old called Weenell running in a WFA at Trentham carrying around 46kg with Noel Eastwood aboard. I think it was the North Island Challenge Stakes. I could be wrong on the exact weight.

Sly wink ran 2nd in exactly the same race if I remember rightly , ridden by W D Skelton ? Would 've been early 70's .

[Pete Lane 640]

9 minutes ago, nomates said:

Sly wink ran 2nd in exactly the same race if I remember rightly , ridden by W D Skelton ? Would 've been early 70's .

I think Weenell was 1968. She was foaled in 1965.

[nomates 3,609]

17 minutes ago, Pete Lane said:

I think Weenell was 1968. She was foaled in 1965.

No , I meant she also ran in the NI challenge stakes as a 2yo .

[Muzzaman 62]

5 minutes ago, nomates said:

No , I meant she also ran in the NI challenge stakes as a 2yo .

Jocasta (1975) and Coobers Queen (1979) also won the race as two year olds. Some other 2-y-o's also won in the days before it was a true WFA.

[nomates 3,609]

2 minutes ago, Muzzaman said:

Jocasta (1975) and Coobers Queen (1979) also won the race as two year olds. Some other 2-y-o's also won in the days before it was a true WFA.

Very good filly Coobers Queen . Did Summer haze run in it ?

[nomates 3,609]

32 minutes ago, nomates said:

Very good filly Coobers Queen . Did Summer haze run in it ?

Just checked Summer Haze record , didn't run in the NICS , but something of interest , she won the first 2yo race of the season at Wanganui , then 11 days later won at hastings , 10 days later won at Otaki , I was there that day , then 14 days later won at Trentham on a heavy track . So 4 races and won them all in barely 5 weeks , wouldn't see that now for sure .

Of real interest , after winning the Matamata Breeders and the Sires Produce as well as all her other wins as a 2yo , as a 3yo she was entitled to go back and race in mdns , can't say I remember that being the situation but clearly it was .

[Memphis3 1,267]

4 hours ago, Muzzaman said:

Jocasta (1975) and Coobers Queen (1979) also won the race as two year olds. Some other 2-y-o's also won in the days before it was a true WFA.

There when Coobers Queen won. Staved off Grey Way I think. Jim Cassidy on board. 

[We're Doomed 4,875]

12 minutes ago, Memphis3 said:

There when Coobers Queen won. Staved off Grey Way I think. Jim Cassidy on board. 

Yes, I remember it well. Quite a difference in size.

[Insider 3,973]

8 hours ago, Leggy said:

Quite right. I'm behind the times. So, fair point WD.

Leggy can you confirm something for me?
My trainer is saying that in BM 65 races, if you have a rating of say 67 you can’t actually run in those races if you have won more than one race. 
Maybe he is correct, because in the BM 65 race (R8) at Tauranga today the No 1 horse Ethereal Star had a rating of 73, but had won only one race!
Looking at all BM Races in totality, it appears that BM 65 races have a special rule all to themselves!
Can you confirm this?
Hopefully with this long ramble I haven’t confused you but to me it doesn’t seem very clear reading what I can find amongst the BM rules and maybe that’s why you were surprised earlier today that in fact there were R65 BM races.

Liz
 

[Leggy 4,096]

4 hours ago, Insider said:

Leggy can you confirm something for me?
My trainer is saying that in BM 65 races, if you have a rating of say 67 you can’t actually run in those races if you have won more than one race. 
Maybe he is correct, because in the BM 65 race (R8) at Tauranga today the No 1 horse Ethereal Star had a rating of 73, but had won only one race!
Looking at all BM Races in totality, it appears that BM 65 races have a special rule all to themselves!
Can you confirm this?
Hopefully with this long ramble I haven’t confused you but to me it doesn’t seem very clear reading what I can find amongst the BM rules and maybe that’s why you were surprised earlier today that in fact there were R65 BM races.

Liz
 

Yes. That's correct. They card them as BM because horses that get to above 65 rating via only one win + say placings in higher grade races are eligible. Probably not very common.

7.2.2 Rating 65 Benchmark
These races are open to all horses rated 65 and below. Entry for horses rated above 65
is restricted to those with one win or less. This Rating band may generally include one
win horses, however, could also include horses with two or more wins that have
subsequently deteriorated in form. Placed horses with a rating of 65 will remain in this
grade. Preference in the order of entry will be given to flat winners over Maidens.

[Hi Ho Silver 785]

On 3/23/2024 at 12:33 PM, Muzzaman said:

She carried 44.25 Pete. Her stablemate did the same the following year. Both trained by Syd Brown at Woodville and ridden by Noel Eastwood.

Did Campanile win that race?

[Hi Ho Silver 785]

My mistake, it was Wood Court Inn I was thinking of.

[Tauhei Notts 1,413]

Further to my post on 21st March at 9.26 p.m., here are my handicaps for the Riverton Cup

Capo Del Impero       61

Humbucker                58.5

Shockalla                    58.5

Prince Alby                  56

Lochiberg                     55

The Tui Toiler               54

Astradeel                      53.5

Choux In, Lily Of Valley, Twilight Gem      53

...........................................................

The Open Sprint

Lightning Jack       61

Midnight Runner    60

Henry Hubber          59

The Good Shepherd      58

Mahabar                      56

Sea shepherd                56

More Than Words       55.5

Hasstobeyou                 55

Miss Harley Quinn, Zac Black & Arceus       54

Now;  Compare those weights with the real thing and tell me where I am wrong.

[Leggy 4,096]

1 hour ago, Tauhei Notts said:

Further to my post on 21st March at 9.26 p.m., here are my handicaps for the Riverton Cup

Capo Del Impero       61

Humbucker                58.5

Shockalla                    58.5

Prince Alby                  56

Lochiberg                     55

The Tui Toiler               54

Astradeel                      53.5

Choux In, Lily Of Valley, Twilight Gem      53

...........................................................

The Open Sprint

Lightning Jack       61

Midnight Runner    60

Henry Hubber          59

The Good Shepherd      58

Mahabar                      56

Sea shepherd                56

More Than Words       55.5

Hasstobeyou                 55

Miss Harley Quinn, Zac Black & Arceus       54

Now;  Compare those weights with the real thing and tell me where I am wrong.

Weights aren't out yet are they?