JJ Flash

Turn it Up-Operation

15 posts in this topic

Commiserations to Lee and other connections ,  has had both knees operated on and out of NZ cup and Interdoms.

Mind you some times early interventions pays dividends later on in horses careers

 

Greg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, what a post said:

Thats a shame,.

The stable does have a high % of horses with injuries though. This year alone you have their top 2yo,top 3yo,and top 4yp  pacers all having knee operations. Then you  have their top 2 3yo trotters with apparent soreness issues . 

 

You're right What A Post. Quite amazing the attrition rate. What would be really interesting - and I'm only dreaming here because such a list would never be made public - a complete list of all the horses that have had the controversial ACS treatment so that the ones that have succumb to injury or early retirement could be made public.

If the treatment is so wholesome, safe, and animal friendly surely such a publication would be promotional gold for ACS .... or would it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My experience with many horses spread around many different trainers leaves me with a different perspective .

I actually admire their horsemanship in recognising issues and then seeking the medical attention to correct things.Of course the owners pay for the treatment but the horses earning capacity often extended.

High profile examples like Turn It Up get the headlines and its story to me is one to be admired. The horse is placed superbly thru its 3 and 4 yr old career racing brilliantly in top races .....no lameness..wins the Jewels.

MP senses a niggle , does the tests and finds there is some small problem so nips it in the bud before it becomes a big problem....masterly horsemanship I say.

Race on and things could be much worse.MP can do the right thing for the horse particularly as his stable has 4 or 5 others who can be set for the races the re-hab horse could be chasing.

Many horses are asked to race on with issues ....many horses...if a trainer has one top horse his reputation/future may depend on it.

My personal experience tells me that the best horses seem to try harder so are more prone to some injuries/issues.....many of my best have had very short careers ,sadly.

I admire horse people who can manage horses that others would discard....I have experience of some in both codes.

A couple of years back an old school friend self taught himself in harness ,developed a Group 1 performer and was getting constantly bagged not only on social media but also in the press......he is/will be breaking horses down etc by starting them off too early ..high attrition was the phrase then too.

I spent a morning at his stable ,had lunch etc and talked horses.It turns out his horses were very happy hardly ever saw a vet and most [ all his horses were for sale] raced for very long careers.

But its easy to sit at home get eaten up  envy at other peoples success and quote perceptions and gossip as 'facts'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, tasman man 11 said:

My experience with many horses spread around many different trainers leaves me with a different perspective .

I actually admire their horsemanship in recognising issues and then seeking the medical attention to correct things.Of course the owners pay for the treatment but the horses earning capacity often extended.

High profile examples like Turn It Up get the headlines and its story to me is one to be admired. The horse is placed superbly thru its 3 and 4 yr old career racing brilliantly in top races .....no lameness..wins the Jewels.

MP senses a niggle , does the tests and finds there is some small problem so nips it in the bud before it becomes a big problem....masterly horsemanship I say.

Race on and things could be much worse.MP can do the right thing for the horse particularly as his stable has 4 or 5 others who can be set for the races the re-hab horse could be chasing.

Many horses are asked to race on with issues ....many horses...if a trainer has one top horse his reputation/future may depend on it.

My personal experience tells me that the best horses seem to try harder so are more prone to some injuries/issues.....many of my best have had very short careers ,sadly.

I admire horse people who can manage horses that others would discard....I have experience of some in both codes.

A couple of years back an old school friend self taught himself in harness ,developed a Group 1 performer and was getting constantly bagged not only on social media but also in the press......he is/will be breaking horses down etc by starting them off too early ..high attrition was the phrase then too.

I spent a morning at his stable ,had lunch etc and talked horses.It turns out his horses were very happy hardly ever saw a vet and most [ all his horses were for sale] raced for very long careers.

But its easy to sit at home get eaten up  envy at other peoples success and quote perceptions and gossip as 'facts'.

Im in full accordance and agreement with everything you posted TM. Any good trainer wil tell you that most injuries occur to those animals with the most abilty as they  try harder. It happens in both codes as well with TB's having many knee and joint issues that require chips removed etc.

 

Greg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, tasman man 11 said:

My experience with many horses spread around many different trainers leaves me with a different perspective .

I actually admire their horsemanship in recognising issues and then seeking the medical attention to correct things.Of course the owners pay for the treatment but the horses earning capacity often extended.

High profile examples like Turn It Up get the headlines and its story to me is one to be admired. The horse is placed superbly thru its 3 and 4 yr old career racing brilliantly in top races .....no lameness..wins the Jewels.

MP senses a niggle , does the tests and finds there is some small problem so nips it in the bud before it becomes a big problem....masterly horsemanship I say.

Race on and things could be much worse.MP can do the right thing for the horse particularly as his stable has 4 or 5 others who can be set for the races the re-hab horse could be chasing.

Many horses are asked to race on with issues ....many horses...if a trainer has one top horse his reputation/future may depend on it.

My personal experience tells me that the best horses seem to try harder so are more prone to some injuries/issues.....many of my best have had very short careers ,sadly.

I admire horse people who can manage horses that others would discard....I have experience of some in both codes.

A couple of years back an old school friend self taught himself in harness ,developed a Group 1 performer and was getting constantly bagged not only on social media but also in the press......he is/will be breaking horses down etc by starting them off too early ..high attrition was the phrase then too.

I spent a morning at his stable ,had lunch etc and talked horses.It turns out his horses were very happy hardly ever saw a vet and most [ all his horses were for sale] raced for very long careers.

But its easy to sit at home get eaten up  envy at other peoples success and quote perceptions and gossip as 'facts'.

You make some good points,but unfortunately you resort back to the "envy other peoples success" thing at the end.

I'm not sure what you mean by quoting gossip as fact as relates to this thread.. 

The media has widely reported what I said about the soreness issues that the current group of top horses trained by the all stars are having. That information has been supplied by the all stars team themselves They seem quite open about it. They are the facts ,are they not?.

 .

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, what a post said:

You make some good points,but unfortunately you resort back to the "envy other peoples success" thing at the end.

I'm not sure what you mean by quoting gossip as fact as relates to this thread.. 

The media has widely reported what I said about the soreness issues that the current group of top horses trained by the all stars are having. That information has been supplied by the all stars team themselves They seem quite open about it. They are the facts ,are they not?.

 .

 

Very thoughtful of you WAP to piggy back on the opening post informing of the horses knee issues getting treatment and a note of encouragement to one of the owners.

As you say this was mentioned in the media and ongoing information regularly updated on the stable website.

However even though all this information is in the public demand you add your own twist...."the stable though has a high % of horses with injuries".

A high %%%%%%%......what is a high %. Is it higher than usual ,higher by industry norms , a higher %  than other ?

Is this statement FACTUAL or a WAP guess.?

I know they have more horses than others ,regularly running in big races at breakneck speed ,several doing a lot of travel and contesting a good number of races per horse . Individual programs seem well managed .

Then your post attracts a tag from Jack....."you are right"....."quite an amazing attrition rate ".

Another negative knife goes in.

Jack would like that a list be made public , but doubts it would happen !.....conspiracy ?

But isn't the information freely available on the stable website.....all stable racehorses are named and progress is updated regularly. Jack suggests 'secrecy' when the stable is not only the biggest but is open to the media as well.

Maybe Jack refers to horses that never make it from the breakers but go to other trainers....Ive had shares in a couple of these....rejects !

The stable obviously targets the group races , but the owners retain ultimate control hence several horses are sold at various stages.....the records of horses like Arden Rooney ,Messini etc suggest their horses are durable and last.There are dozens having long careers in Perth and South Australia as well as the main states.

Turn It Up has had a brilliant career...had a low key start to racing in lesser races then was sprung into the NZ Free For All after a big handful of starts and has raced in Group races since. He's being looked after. Is he their TOP 4 yr old ? Ahead of Thefixer and Spankem on results to date ?

I note the Whitelocks have retired Kayla Maree to the breeding barn after earning $200k in a brief career ,when clearly a step below the top fillies.Their top filly Princess Tiffany is continuing but such is the meticulous planning and care of the horses welfare that she was sent to Matamata for a complete health check recently.

Personally I marvel at the care and attention these horses get and Im confident it contributes to their success........as to a bit of soreness among young trotters ,it happens.

From personal experience I know bone chips ,slivers ,feet issues ,growing pains etc are very common and recently I had shares in two[elsewhere] which were kicked by their paddock mates and that can do damage too. 

Me thinks jealousy and envy is very much alive.......if things are reported in the media and the stable website ,why the need to suggest you know better ?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Everything is online? I must have missed the list detailing those in receipt of ACS treatment.

If the percentage of those treated succumbing to injury(or sudden retirement) isn't damning, why the secrecy?

Keep fighting the good fight Tasman Man. I seem to recall you being an ardent supporter of the infamous G Small back in the day too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tasman man

I said i believe  the all stars have a high % of their horses develop injuries. 

If you want clarification ,i am commenting on their top horses. That is who I referred too in my original post.

That's my opinion. 

If you believe I have formed that opinion because of envy and jealousy ,then why  did you see the need to give the   well thought  out  possible contributing causes.   

 We obviously have different perspectives, as  does jack.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Lee270744 said:

Have I missed Jack Sprat coming out I wonder what the secrecy is? surely he is not ashamed of himself.

Ignore him Lee . He's got it in his head that something is not kosha  with blood spinning and no matter how  much info you and others give him he continually wants more.

He's simply not brave enough to.outright post that the process is leading to AS domination and  causing all the injury issues which is of course utterly unprovable.

 

Greg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Lee270744 said:

Have I missed Jack Sprat coming out I wonder what the secrecy is? surely he is not ashamed of himself.

Maybe try to scan the thread a little better.

As I've had to say to you  in the past, try to keep up!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Top athletes get hurt more than slow one.same horses .speed by weight.in my case all my injuries self inflicted not by high level competition.richie was always hurt.mark Graham coz they put their bodies on the line like turn it up.the ball came to me I just thru it any direction n9t to get tackled.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No work or trots on today so I have done  a bit of reading  on the causes of lameness in standardbreds. One of the studies was in Europe where they obviously only have trotters,however I think their findings would still be relevant here.

The main points as far as causes seemed to be.(relating to Musculoskeletal injuries)

Training on hard surfaces all the time.   Speed needs kept in check if that is the only surface you use. 

Most injuries occur on the inside leg which is why working both ways is needed. 

Ideally training should involve a mix of surfaces and directions.

Age did not appear to be a risk factor.

Intense training techniques on the "right surfaces" commonly employed by the faster horses did NOT result in increased likelihood of exercise related injuries.

High intensity training seemingly being protective for stress fracture development.

the more exercise a horse accumulates the less likely they are to sustain injury.  racing intensity and race numbers were shown to be a protective factor.

veterinary treatments to solve gait or subtle lameness increase the risk of  injury,.....  in my opinion this relates to the all stars as we are often hearing about  veterinary treatment. Obviously it pays off short term,but is a negative factor as relates to possible future injury

  Horses like turn it up and other all star horses are only sparingly raced, targeting the bigger races, Going on what I have read this is a probable factor in their injury rates(my opinion) . And that is what we are talking about on this thread, not their level of success.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/13/2019 at 11:59 PM, JackSprat said:

Everything is online? I must have missed the list detailing those in receipt of ACS treatment.

If the percentage of those treated succumbing to injury(or sudden retirement) isn't damning, why the secrecy?

Keep fighting the good fight Tasman Man. I seem to recall you being an ardent supporter of the infamous G Small back in the day too.

Good memory there Jack 

I always been one to admire those with outstanding talents ,especially those from the wrong side of tracks.

Plus if people treat me well ,and give me a bit of time I will support back strongly if I think a bit of balance necessary.

I also put my head up to be shot at with A Clark and one of a few on here to support Tom Wood when he first started out.

Plus I usually only talk from experience or from directly asking the person being savaged. I prefer good oil , not gossip or mother in law research.

You should consider Journalism ...shame to waste your efforts on cafers only !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now