Thoughts on M.M market?

[what a post 811]

JT, the reference to  ck was just in jest. I realise you 2 don't always agree.  Agree Mickey g is o.k.,(does he get his gold chains from his 1/2 brother ali?)                       Gonsta. That's some impressive google work. Is that part of the quote from me?  Must have been some  highly intelligent stuff on that thread.  I would have thought any use of a product which opens the airways and allows an increase in oxygen intake would help performance?  Not saying anything too sinister there.            Iraklis.  Just joking about the roller.                                                                        Seriously though boys you paint a picture of the all stars team as visionaries when it comes to training and embracing new training techniques. you point out they have top horses,wealthy owners,great facilities,drivers,staff.  No ones ever argued with these points. You  accept past history relating to infringement for use of performance enhancers but say that is not relevant. But where you lose me is when you confidently say he rejects the latest advances in the use of products that may enhance performance,Apparantly they do not need too,they are simply superior and dont need too.  You NEVER accept products from vets or the like have any influence on his success.  Really?            Did  any of you follow the cobalt cases in Australia. They were enlightening in allowing you to understand the physce of the leading horse trainers there.  The presuure they are under to succeed , The lengths they go to..     Finally those that run the riu.   Best way to sum up their approach to performance enhancers is to mention their ways of dealing with them.  History shows that if intelligence shows performance enhancers are in use the first thing they do is tell the vets(who tell their clients) and then the riu announce publicly that they will be testing soon for whatever performance enhancer,stop using them.  What plonkers. Its like the police telling the drunk driver we will stop you if you drive down this street. What happens? the drunk driver takes another route home.

[Spikecity 749]

If What a Post and Brodie are half right about your allegations then it makes Barry Purdon look an idiot paying big money for  HUG THE WIND.

[Guest]

51 minutes ago, Spikecity said:

If What a Post and Brodie are half right about your allegations then it makes Barry Purdon look an idiot paying big money for  HUG THE WIND.

How do you work that out Spike?

Depends on what they paid for it doesn't ?

Do you know how much?

With the small numbers of mid class horses in Auckland and racing for good money they could teacup,their money pretty quickly and then sell to Oz for probably what they paid for it.

 

[Spikecity 749]

4 hours ago, Brodie said:

How do you work that out Spike?

Depends on what they paid for it doesn't ?

Do you know how much?

With the small numbers of mid class horses in Auckland and racing for good money they could teacup,their money pretty quickly and then sell to Oz for probably what they paid for it.

 

You missed the point as usual - solid concrete 

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, Spikecity said:

You missed the point as usual - solid concrete 

Spike, you alleged that Barry Purdon was an idiot for purchasing Hug The Wind even though you don't seem to know what he paid for it!!!

Solid concrete!!!

[what a post 811]

Spikecity,  I think brodies reply to your news made perfect sense. I could have responded to your intended point in 2 ways,          both more contentious than brodies reply, but think brodies original reply is as good a comment I would give without going where I think you want me to go.   Having said that,Just for you, I will state that in my opinion never before in my 35 years I have been following the sport, has there been  the capability to improve  some horses ability  overnight with a stable change ,this comment relates to several(not just one) stable.  Strangely that seems to be just what the riu want.     

[what a post 811]

Heres another one for you boys.  Auckland reactor, remember him,(Loved watching him)   Well if you compare his times to what your favourite stable does now then you would find he would, AT HIS ALL TIME BEST , be easily beaten by many of the all star 2yos  over the short distance races and  be given a hiding by any of your favourite stables 3 yo old fillies. Don't you boys just love it.        

[JayTee2016 116]

55 minutes ago, what a post said:

Heres another one for you boys.  Auckland reactor, remember him,(Loved watching him)   Well if you compare his times to what your favourite stable does now then you would find he would, AT HIS ALL TIME BEST , be easily beaten by many of the all star 2yos  over the short distance races and  be given a hiding by any of your favourite stables 3 yo old fillies. Don't you boys just love it.        

So now we are comparing horses from one generation to the next by times?

Ok. I will bite  In 1963 a fairly decent horse won the NZ Cup in 4.11.2. You may have heard of him. His name was Cardigan Bay.

In 2014 Adore Me won the cup in 3.54.6. She bettered Cardy's time by about 16 seconds. That's roughly 170 metres give or take. Is Adore Me a 170 metre better horse than Cardigan Bay? Times mean a lot but they don't mean everything especially with all the other improvements made as time goes by. 

[what a post 811]

Jaytee,    Auckland reactor last raced in 2013 (3 years ago) . He did a clean sweep winning his 3 inter dom heats just 4 years ago.   The same leading sires those years as they are now. Sorry mate, you normally do your homework better than that.

[JayTee2016 116]

3 minutes ago, what a post said:

Jaytee,    Auckland reactor last raced in 2013 (3 years ago) . He did a clean sweep winning his 3 inter dom heats just 4 years ago.   The same leading sires those years as they are now. Sorry mate, you normally do your homework better than that.

Some of the times horses are running these days leave you scratching your head. Just today at Menagle Thebattlesjusbegun won the mile in 1.50. This was a C2 race won by a horse with stake earnings of 10k. That time would have beaten Smoken Up in his 2011 Miracle Mile by around 25 metres give or take. 

I know where you are coming from what a post. I followed Light And Sound. I just feel certain you are wrong here.

[JackSprat 947]

Tonight not one, but two All Star 2yo's knocked 2.5 seconds off a national record, with the rest of the field, including some other very very good 2yo's 10 lengths away.

Tonight not one, but two All Star 3yo's fillies knocked close to a second off a national record, with the rest of the field, including some other very very good 3yo's fillies 10 lengths away.

With these results, along with some of the recent efforts of some of their illustrious stablemates, it would seem to indicate that the All Stars production line has kicked into another gear. I'll bet a few other stables would like to get hold of their "great training, great feed, and great care" secrets!

 

[chevy86 2,710]

45 minutes ago, JackSprat said:

I'll bet a few other stables would like to get hold of their "great training, great feed, and great care" secrets!

 

One or two superior horses , maybe. But this total obliteration  of others stables, including the times run, should have the industry raising doubts, even that germ Guerin.

[Spikecity 749]

6 hours ago, Brodie said:

Spike, you alleged that Barry Purdon was an idiot for purchasing Hug The Wind even though you don't seem to know what he paid for it!!!

Solid concrete!!!

Can you not read or is it a comprehension deficit. Where did I say B Purdon is an idiot.

I stated that based on your allegations about Marks horses running on something - then you must regard B Purdon to be an idiot for buying a horse of this stable.

[23Tank 33]

I agree you have to wonder, especially the way the 2 national record quinellas ran away and hid the last 2 minutes. I do, however still have to give them the benefit of the doubt and if I am correct, and not insanely naive, it makes 'all stars' the best outfit in Australasia, daylight second.

reasoning....

1. Didn't think of the hug the wind angle as above, but makes perfect sense - would he really do that to his brother?

2. would he really do it to his father 'mbe' with this more the better?

3. With her legacy secured with blacks a fake alone, and the fact they are no longer an item, would NR, not have hightailed it back to oz?

4. Legends such as Jim Gibbs, highly regarded people such as Casey, Pilcher, etc. Would he really risk losing face with these folk.

 

im not sure I fully believe my own logic, but it can't be anything they're currently testing for and if there is a magic formula that when comes to light, is found to be highly illegal and/or unethical, he must know retrospective testing will be done.

unless, he's banking on hrnz not wanting to open the biggest can of worms of all.

also remember he trained scuse me, which is now the most revolutionary broodmare of the last 40 years, he trained shesadoozie and he's picked the eyes out of the Aussie sales with fairly cheep purchases like Waikiki beach. He's shown the way how to perfectly campaign a 2-3 year old from October to the following August and peak them at the right time to the point we might see a million dollar earner before its 4th birthday soon.

im very quick to look at results at any level and suggest to my mates 'he's got the juice', if I even half suspect it. In the case of Mark Purdon and the All Stars team, despite the form he had, I'm not sure he would risk it this time round.

 

 

[23Tank 33]

First sentence should have ended in last 200 meters

[JayTee2016 116]

9 hours ago, what a post said:

 

They are champion trainers...not champion chemists. 

[JayTee2016 116]

1 hour ago, 23Tank said:

I agree you have to wonder, especially the way the 2 national record quinellas ran away and hid the last 2 minutes. I do, however still have to give them the benefit of the doubt and if I am correct, and not insanely naive, it makes 'all stars' the best outfit in Australasia, daylight second.

reasoning....

1. Didn't think of the hug the wind angle as above, but makes perfect sense - would he really do that to his brother?

2. would he really do it to his father 'mbe' with this more the better?

3. With her legacy secured with blacks a fake alone, and the fact they are no longer an item, would NR, not have hightailed it back to oz?

4. Legends such as Jim Gibbs, highly regarded people such as Casey, Pilcher, etc. Would he really risk losing face with these folk.

 

im not sure I fully believe my own logic, but it can't be anything they're currently testing for and if there is a magic formula that when comes to light, is found to be highly illegal and/or unethical, he must know retrospective testing will be done.

unless, he's banking on hrnz not wanting to open the biggest can of worms of all.

also remember he trained scuse me, which is now the most revolutionary broodmare of the last 40 years, he trained shesadoozie and he's picked the eyes out of the Aussie sales with fairly cheep purchases like Waikiki beach. He's shown the way how to perfectly campaign a 2-3 year old from October to the following August and peak them at the right time to the point we might see a million dollar earner before its 4th birthday soon.

im very quick to look at results at any level and suggest to my mates 'he's got the juice', if I even half suspect it. In the case of Mark Purdon and the All Stars team, despite the form he had, I'm not sure he would risk it this time round.

 

 

My dad always talked about people or a team etc only being as strong or as good as their weakest link. I sincerely believe the All Stars have covered every base so there is no weakest link.

As is the case with most successful people,they get what the want. Go to any Auckland house auction. You will find at least two successful people bidding on something they want. End result is you get house prices off the charts.

The All Stars want to win every elite race on either side of the Tasman. Sooner or later they will invade further afield. They cover every base in their quest for success.

Mark does his homework and buys very well. He sees things others either can't see or cant afford. He has the owners to back his judgement. The old saying comes into play. Success breads success. The wave of confidence Mark Purdon rides must be some ride.

Lets just say hypothetically that the All Stars have the best horse in every elite race. Add to that the fact both Natalie and Mark are two of our best drivers. They are calm as cucumbers under pressure. Extremely rare for them to make an error in a race. They have a strategy for every possible scenario. They think things through. If all the above is correct,what possible use is it if any of your rivals are fitter than you? They have obviously found the key to having their horses 100% ready when it matters most. They are to be commended. I've lost count of the number of times I see superb horses clean up in the heats etc by big margins so the owners have the nice photo's on the wall. What they have actually done is spend more gas than needed and put a big target on their back for when the races arrive that really matter. Hughie Green in the Group One 170k Sires Stakes final on cup day 2014 is a good example. The race was won by Have faith in me. Second placing went to Hug the wind. Third place went to Alta Orlando. They of course are all from the All Stars. In front only when it mattered. The fav Hughie Green finished up on the infield but did lead turning for home. Unfortunately you don't get paid on that. I see Hughie Green got rolled as a very short fav again last night by No Doctor Needed who himself has been beaten as a very short priced fav for the previous two weeks. Cringe worthy. When I put my money on short priced favs from the All Stars, I know exactly what I'm going to get and that builds all important punter confidence. I don't know them from Adam but it's as if I get a private message from them the night before the big race day. Message reads. "All horses nailed down 100%. It's going to take something very special to beat us in any of the big races. Chances are the only way we will get rolled in any feature is if one of our stars breaks down. Bet with confidence"

I bet accordingly. Others stand there saying,it's not fair,their horses must be on some super drug unknown to everyone else on the planet. 

I feel supremely confident, if you do the maths, their results do stack up. To keep talking about "cheating" is the height of envy and ignorance in my opinion. it's a pity Mick Guerin is their head cheerleader. He knows his stuff and I respect his knowledge but many can't stand him. They see him as a creep that they wouldn't trust as far as they could throw him. Many remember how he aligned himself with another big stable taking all the cream on the cake several years ago. A stable many believed bought the game into disrepute. Ironically that same stable appear to have gone from winning Group One's all over the shop to now winning races at Wanganui,Manawatu and Stratford. 

Mark made an error of judgement several years ago. He picked himself up and started over. A lesser man would have curled up in the fetal position and given up. It's a credit to him that he is now the trail blazer he has become.

His family have been huge in harness racing. If he is a cheat then everything that family has ever achieved will be forever tarnished with the word cheat. Would anyone with a brain bigger than a brussel sprout risk that? Would NZ harness racing ever recover? Natalie herself has a magnificent record. Do you really believe she would flush down the toilet everything she and her family have ever achieved? Then you have the list of highly respected individuals associated with the All Stars. Would any of them let alone all of them risk destroying harness racing and their own family name etc?

I'm more than happy to admire the achievements of the All Stars rather than keep thinking "cheat".

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Spikecity said:

Can you not read or is it a comprehension deficit. Where did I say B Purdon is an idiot.

I stated that based on your allegations about Marks horses running on something - then you must regard B Purdon to be an idiot for buying a horse of this stable.

You clearly said that Barry Purdon was an idiot buying Hug The Wind if half what was inferred was correct.

How much did he pay for it?

 

[Guest]

Pacing Major sat parked the whole way last night in 1.53 mile rateand still kept going strong.

Unheard of and the AllStars horses are just getting better and better.

Whatever they are doing there is no way in hell that any other stable is going to compete with them.

Would be interesting what the other trainers are thinking?

Clearly must be better training techniques that make their horses light years ahead of all the others!!!!!

 

 

[JackSprat 947]

Well JayTee, I think you've pretty much wrapped up the invite to write the foreword when an All Stars biography is commissioned!

Hopefully there's also a chapter in the book that explains how they have magically created a 10 length gap between themselves and everyone else come big race day .... right across the board.

[JayTee2016 116]

42 minutes ago, JackSprat said:

Well JayTee, I think you've pretty much wrapped up the invite to write the foreword when an All Stars biography is commissioned!

Hopefully there's also a chapter in the book that explains how they have magically created a 10 length gap between themselves and everyone else come big race day .... right across the board.

I think that position has already been filled Jack. Wouldn't accept it if offered anyway. We are just harness racing enthusiasts debating our perspectives. I just believe they have used all of their vast expertise to take the game to a new level. Somebody had to and they had all the right credentials. Others believe something is rotten in Denmark because their horses are faster and stronger. I choose to believe there is nothing at all underhanded with their ground breaking achievements. In the 1960's American athlete Jim Ryun set world mile records around the 3.50 mark. He popularized interval workout techniques. He was ahead of his time. No drugs. No cheating. He just found ways of evolving in key areas. Then came our own John Walker to take it to the next level. Then along came the likes of Sebastian Coe and Steve Ovett who improved the record five times between them. Some felt drugs must be involved. Others felt it was athletes evolving. Now we have Hicham El Guerrouj who set a new record in 1999 of 3.43. Some were convinced he was a drug cheat. How was it possible for him to improve Jim Ruyn's time by a remarkable seven seconds? The fact that time has stood for 17 years could mean humans simply can't run any faster than 3.43. We know that is not true. The great Roger Bannister would have been tailed off based on his once record breaking times. At some point men will push each other under the 3.40 mark. When will that happen? Probably when you pay them ten million dollars to reach that point. Money and glory is a great motivator. 

The All Stars have got the jump on the field. Sooner or later the field will catch up. As things stand now we are pointing fingers at the harness equivalent of James Cook and Christopher Columbus. 

[Iraklis 2,231]

To all you naysayers, 'what the hell has Mark P and Natalie R ever done to you?' ay, I'm readin through all the bullshit and thinkin they must have done somehting shockingly bad to the lot of you, so lets hear it!!!

Your all full of insinuation, assumption, allusion, not one of you knows for absolute certainty or has provided any kind of proof that AllStars is 'using' something other than their own inherent expertise (both Nat and Mark), all I am seein is a group of envious, jealous, gossip mongers, who have nothin better to do with their time than stir shite about a Stable that have worked hard at their success, and will more than likely continue on until others start closing the gap, which I believe is starting to happen given those buyin up big at sales this year etc..........shame! shame on the bloody lot of you!!!! 

To those who are postin in here (this thread) who are trainers/owners whatever, perhaps if you put as much time into training your horses as you do into p!ssin and moanin in here then you too could be as good if not better than AllStars...........AllStars are the competition! your opposition! get of your moanin backsides and do something about it for chrissakes!!! throwin your hands up and snivelling bunch of bloody wooses........go on the lot of yuh!!!

 

Cheers Iraklis

PS. to those of you who seriously think your are on to something and can provide undisputed proof, I say grow a pair! contact the law, and make your accusation accordingly, that would be the correct proceedure!!!

[what a post 811]

5 hours ago, JayTee2016 said:

 His family have been huge in harness racing. If he is a cheat then everything that family has ever achieved will be forever tarnished with the word cheat. Would anyone with a brain bigger than a brussel sprout risk that? Would NZ harness racing ever recover? Natalie herself has a magnificent record. Do you really believe she would flush down the toilet everything she and her family have ever achieved? Then you have the list of highly respected individuals associated with the All Stars. Would any of them let alone all of them risk destroying harness racing and their own family name etc?

 

Well jaytee, you have without knowing it put your finger on why Authorities put their heads in the sand when it comes to dealing with this issue.   

[what a post 811]

37 minutes ago, Iraklis said:

 

PS. to those of you who seriously think your are on to something and can provide undisputed proof, I say grow a pair! contact the law, and make your accusation accordingly, that would be the correct proceedure!!!

Your a funny fella iraklis.  You too have inadvertently pointed out something relevant.  Remember the blue magic affair..                      The only reason it came to light was because the police became involved.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, JayTee2016 said:

I think that position has already been filled Jack. Wouldn't accept it if offered anyway. We are just harness racing enthusiasts debating our perspectives. I just believe they have used all of their vast expertise to take the game to a new level. Somebody had to and they had all the right credentials. Others believe something is rotten in Denmark because their horses are faster and stronger. I choose to believe there is nothing at all underhanded with their ground breaking achievements. In the 1960's American athlete Jim Ryun set world mile records around the 3.50 mark. He popularized interval workout techniques. He was ahead of his time. No drugs. No cheating. He just found ways of evolving in key areas. Then came our own John Walker to take it to the next level. Then along came the likes of Sebastian Coe and Steve Ovett who improved the record five times between them. Some felt drugs must be involved. Others felt it was athletes evolving. Now we have Hicham El Guerrouj who set a new record in 1999 of 3.43. Some were convinced he was a drug cheat. How was it possible for him to improve Jim Ruyn's time by a remarkable seven seconds? The fact that time has stood for 17 years could mean humans simply can't run any faster than 3.43. We know that is not true. The great Roger Bannister would have been tailed off based on his once record breaking times. At some point men will push each other under the 3.40 mark. When will that happen? Probably when you pay them ten million dollars to reach that point. Money and glory is a great motivator. 

The All Stars have got the jump on the field. Sooner or later the field will catch up. As things stand now we are pointing fingers at the harness equivalent of James Cook and Christopher Columbus. 

JayTee.

You are talking about individuals improving  not a whole stable, that is many lengths better than anyone else!

Interesting!