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Berri

Just about sums it up....

18 posts in this topic

The leading 3yo sire in Aussie by winers is Fastnet Rock. 107 runners, 59 winners, 102 wins for $7,378,983.

In NZ is Darci Brama, 39 runners, 23 winners, 37 wins for $628,045

That's a disparity of 90%....fork

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The leading 3yo sire in Aussie by winers is Fastnet Rock. 107 runners, 59 winners, 102 wins for $7,378,983.

In NZ is Darci Brama, 39 runners, 23 winners, 37 wins for $628,045

That's a disparity of 90%....fork

come to mind - it really is stuffed locally

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Take your point Berri - things are bad here, no question. However, it's probably a bit more accurate to put it this way:

Fastnet Rock: Ave per winner $72,342

Darci Brahma: " " " $16,975

Still a marked difference - but not quite 90%... :)

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The leading 3yo sire in Aussie by winers is Fastnet Rock. 107 runners, 59 winners, 102 wins for $7,378,983.

In NZ is Darci Brama, 39 runners, 23 winners, 37 wins for $628,045

That's a disparity of 90%....fork

Berri

Have you got the details of how many mares Fastnet Rock served in the applicable year?

107 runners produced in one breeding season seems a phenomenal number especially given it is in just their three year old year. By the time say another 20 turn up who missed racing for some reason this season that will make a lot of foals!

And whilst they(the Fastnet Rocks) have time on their side it is not a striking winners to runners average either.

And we have to remember that Darci Brahma will have had some or all of his best leave NZ(Super Easy being an obvious example)

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Take your point Berri - things are bad here, no question. However, it's probably a bit more accurate to put it this way:

Fastnet Rock: Ave per winner $72,342

Darci Brahma: " " " $16,975

Still a marked difference - but not quite 90%... :)

the difference in stud fee and what each horse was purchased for? Plus training fees?

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it's how much is on offer for the progeny of the stallion who produced the largest amount of winners in their 3yo season. NZ stud masters can charge what they like, they can cover as many mares as they like...that's not the defining point...

The defining point is how much is on offer.....and from Aussie's perspective, there's more to come!!! We have not just slipped, we've fallen down an enclosed crevass with no rope, crampons or GPS tracking device.

The other worrying and terrifying part is that none of the top 5 NZ stallions (winners) are in the top 30 stallions in Aussie. This is the three year old season we are talking about here.

In earnings lists only two make it in the top 30. If that's the case, then the argument that we made back in 1994 has arrived. In a paper to the NZ Racing Board we stated that if NZ didn't improve its racing stakes, then NZ wouldn't have any stallions in the top ten in Aussie sires lists, then NZ stallions would be looked as second rate, then the progeny produced in NZ would be regarded as second rate, then the stakes winners in NZ would be looked as second rate and then the progeny of NZ stakes winners would be looked as second rate.

This would also extend to stallions. Take Darci Brama....is he a good stallion? A champion in NZ, a weak Gp1 winner in Aussie...doesn't feature as a stallion in Aust in the latest lists. The only one flying the flag is in fact Savabeel (mainly through the deeds of Sangster). He was a Cox Plate winner, by a champion stallion and is the only one in the lists near the top in the 3yo earnings lists.

So what next?...

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Berri,

Economists call it incremental creep.

It just creeps up on us without us noticing it until it is too late.

An example;

53 years ago Star Kingdom was Aussie's leading sire. The second sire to him had progeny earnings of 46,048 pounds. That same season Fair's Fair was N.Z.'s leading stallion with progeny earnings of 40,657 pounds.

Second example; Dalray's Melbourne Cup was for stakes of 11,200 pounds. Classowa's Auckland Cup that year was for 12,500 pounds.

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Berri from your dissertation it looks as if the NZ breeders should be putting into stakes more. That is not features, but up to open class. You could even call it self interest to do so.

My perception is NZTBA is a strong and cohesive outfit and their members arguably have the most skin in the game.

In my view the minimal acceptable stakes levels: two wins week days and one win Saturday should get an owner square for the season. Its nowhere near that now

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it's how much is on offer for the progeny of the stallion who produced the largest amount of winners in their 3yo season. NZ stud masters can charge what they like, they can cover as many mares as they like...that's not the defining point...

The defining point is how much is on offer.....and from Aussie's perspective, there's more to come!!! We have not just slipped, we've fallen down an enclosed crevass with no rope, crampons or GPS tracking device.

The other worrying and terrifying part is that none of the top 5 NZ stallions (winners) are in the top 30 stallions in Aussie. This is the three year old season we are talking about here.

In earnings lists only two make it in the top 30. If that's the case, then the argument that we made back in 1994 has arrived. In a paper to the NZ Racing Board we stated that if NZ didn't improve its racing stakes, then NZ wouldn't have any stallions in the top ten in Aussie sires lists, then NZ stallions would be looked as second rate, then the progeny produced in NZ would be regarded as second rate, then the stakes winners in NZ would be looked as second rate and then the progeny of NZ stakes winners would be looked as second rate.

This would also extend to stallions. Take Darci Brama....is he a good stallion? A champion in NZ, a weak Gp1 winner in Aussie...doesn't feature as a stallion in Aust in the latest lists. The only one flying the flag is in fact Savabeel (mainly through the deeds of Sangster). He was a Cox Plate winner, by a champion stallion and is the only one in the lists near the top in the 3yo earnings lists.

So what next?...

When the Aussies stop coming here to the sales(as is the inevitable consequence of what you are talking about here) - that is when the bleeders(as one senior club administrator used to call them) will start to really whinge

One Saturday a couple of weeks back I saw one Kiwi bred winner at the three major city meetings in Aussie(Sydney Melbourne and Brisbane)

What is happening here is frightening for the future of NZ Racing and breeding though it is interesting that we still seem to be performing exceptionally well in Asia. If that starts to weaken....

I know we have been saying this for years but the industry is stuffed and unless there is major steps taken and in a hell of a hurry one wonders where this is gong to end.

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Can you just stop lumping "breeders" into one category!!! :( I am a breeder because I have one mare that I breed - I have to juggle my budget to allow me to do this and it is pretty tight sometimes so please remember we are not all frigging awash with cash!

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Can you just stop lumping "breeders" into one category!!! :( I am a breeder because I have one mare that I breed - I have to juggle my budget to allow me to do this and it is pretty tight sometimes so please remember we are not all frigging awash with cash!

Couldn't agree more!! There are a number of smaller breeders out there that are just managing to get by, and they’re the ones that provide a fair chunk of the horses for the domestic market. If you think that fillies are getting an unfair advantage in races, stop moaning about it and buy a dam filly or two and try and get some of that extra cash. If there aren’t incentives for fillies to race and there’s no market to sell them in, what’s going to happen to them? More than likely they’ll be put down or end up as a farm hack, they won’t become race horses. This will then lead to a decline in the number of available mares as breeding stock in NZ, which will ultimately lead to a decrease in the number of foals produced each year, then where are you going to get your new racing stock from? Australia? Hardly, most of the domestic buyers can’t compete with the overseas buyers when they come here as it is, how do you think they’ll fair when they try buying horses from the Oz sales. Stop putting the boot in to breeders, there are a lot of us out there that have nothing to do with what is continually being harped on about on here. If you have an issue with a breeder who you think is doing something underhandedly, then name them, and stop grouping them all together.

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Wash your mouth out with soap!! you can't go telling the truth here and expect to get away with it.

Breeders are a protected species in NZ.

They race fillies as a necessary evil, it's a part of their business expenses and of course it helps to make the page of their established families when the filly they kept back, because they knew from the paddock it was a good actioned fast filly, wins black type for them.

Meantime the dogs that used to belong to Pavlov, but who now reside in Petone, when they're not flying somewhere exotic for a conference about nothing, they bend over and slobber for the breeders as you'd expect a $2 hooker would on Hunter's corner.

Not only do they get an unfair weight concession for fillies and mares but they get dedicated two and three year old races for fillies only, males don't get that, then they get these ridiculous fillies and mares events that have huge subsidies from us, eg the one at Ruakaka two meetings ago was an R75 for $25,000, yes 25k, and if you took Donna and Dean Logans 7 entries out it was a four, yes 4, horse field.

Meantime the breeders get a new TV show, at our expense, all about buying shoes and what hat to wear to the races....and if that's not bad enough Simon Tool, oops Doull, now has a new breeders show, all about how rich they are, how well they've done, how many farms they own, how long their dick is, oops, boat is, how fast they can ski down Mt Kilimanjaro...and guess who's paying for it all???

You got it, we are!! the racing people pay for the breeders TV show and we subsidise their racing stock.

What a fxxxing joke..show me another sport where it happens, does F1 pay for Mercedes to race their cars, of course not, Mercedes pays F1 for the privilege of having the opportunity to expose their brand.

Racing has it all wrong in NZ because policy is written for the breeders by those who are beholden to them.

Hunters Corner where the rubber hits the road, footpath, doorways etc. Not too far from here was the South Auckland Debt Collectors. This "mob' ran a service from a pub. To book an appt you stood at the door and you were met by 'reception'. Fee 20% of invoice. Performance in 7 days.

Advice of this option of service worked wonders. Enough said.

But I've digressed. We've got a good share with the iconic one, of a yearling filly. Back to a filly because thats the way to go. Its really important to know which way is up. Having figured that its best to know where the exit is.

So here we go, its a punt, but if we get lucky again it wont entirely be a fluke. And if not and the signals are bad---------One is not a masochist or a benevolent society member

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Can you just stop lumping "breeders" into one category!!! :( I am a breeder because I have one mare that I breed - I have to juggle my budget to allow me to do this and it is pretty tight sometimes so please remember we are not all frigging awash with cash!

so very true Louise! As a small breeder its a bloody tough game with little or no reward. We are no all in the champagne and caviar set you know!

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zzz with all respect, your rants against 'The Breeders' are not helpful and only fuel the sort of bickering that our industry is too well known for. For example, I see in the Business section of the Herald today and I quote,

" Dr Alan Jackson is the latest to take up the baton and try and sort out the struggling racing industry. Jackson is taking over from Michael Stiassny as chairman of the Racing Board. The warring factions in the industry are said now to be able to spend time in the same room, though their ability to work together is somewhat limited by their inability to agree on what the problems are, let alone the solutions. Racing Minister Nathan Guy has been criticised by some for having little influence on the sector, but he would not be the first minister to be criticised for that."

This perception by a disinterested public is a real indictment on the industry as a whole and despite our problems - or perhaps even BECAUSE of our problems - we have to work together!

It's like drowning rats fighting over the last bit of driftwood for racing people to be criticising breeding people when BOTH depend on the game for their livelihood.

We need a strong breeding industry AND we need a strong racing industry; as someone else alluded to, we NEED fillies to continue producing horses to train.

The incentives, as I see it, are to plug the gap that is afforded by the wealthy Asian market for colts - but not for fillies. The 'big breeders' are not the enemy zzz; start writing a list of the successful stallions brought to this country by anyone else! Our industry would be in an even more woeful state if it were not for the [largely] big breeders who have bought or imported the quality stallions that are the lynch-pins of our industry at the moment. And how many trainers have horses in their stables owned by breeders?

It IS a tough industry - but fighting amongst ourselves will only get both sides 'black-eyes.'

If it's all SO one sided - for goodness sake start training some fillies and stop being so darn Irish about it!! :)

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Take your point Berri - things are bad here, no question. However, it's probably a bit more accurate to put it this way:

Fastnet Rock: Ave per winner $72,342

Darci Brahma: " " " $16,975

Still a marked difference - but not quite 90%... :)

Yes and these figures are Australasia only, and don't include the Million plus that Super Easy has earned in Singapore. You also need to take into account Stud fees. Fastnet Rock is what? A$150k to A$200k, Darci Brahma this year NZ$20k.

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although to an extent I have sympathy with what zzz is saying. We have a number of facets to this industry and they should be prioritised. The first priority is the horse. They are forced to endure an activity that some like but most don't. Therefore their welfare should be top of the list. Then it should be the people who look after them. The more they feel appreciated the better the horse will feel. Any government should understand that the horse industry could become one of the biggest employers of people. You can't run a horse without people. Our horse people used to be the best....I'm not so sure now....we've been cutting so many corners...the money has got so bad they leave our shores.

Then its onto the business end. We have an Act (the rule book). We have never exploited this. We are allowed to do many things but none of them have ever been done. I personally find this frustrating.

We have race tracks that could be argued are community beneficial, but we don't have a portfolio of the right ones in the right places.

Our media assets are a shambles. Who ever is in charge of these needs sacking right now. No media space in the newspapers, a slow but gradual dilution of the information available...web sites that are crap and amaturish...TV cameras that are second rate...production systems that are 20 odd years old in their format and protocols....I could go on

The events are tired....the racing calendar has been run by amatures who haven't understood the concept of a competition and the process of anticipation

An the betting....well that's a whole new World that has been placed into the hands of a new CEO who doesn't know the black science of betting. I only hope that the teams that have been nominated to help us all can help him understand the puzzle. It will take two years for him to understand it so I know we wont get much done on this front because to understand betting we have to have the technology. To do that you have to be an expert in media/ communications/ statistical technology systems. This takes an age to get. How can a CEO instruct his team what they should be doing if he doesn't thoroughly understand the puzzle himself?

Its a serious issue.....and unfortunately one of many

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Yes and these figures are Australasia only, and don't include the Million plus that Super Easy has earned in Singapore. You also need to take into account Stud fees. Fastnet Rock is what? A$150k to A$200k, Darci Brahma this year NZ$20k.

I have no interest in self interest or marketing. I don't care. Stud fees have nothing to do with this argument, nor trying to market them. Singapore is irrelevant because I am comparing Australia and New Zealand. That is our control as we have an established history with Aussie and it is our biggest and best market....John...don't corrupt the discussion with self promotional spin.

There are many stakes-jacked races (Magic Millions etc) so stakes earnings are corrupted. The amount of winners aren't but the amount those winners earn is important. That is why I have used winners and three year olds because that is the classic year. That was what the industry was all about.

The issue for thought is that we have slipped soooo much in relation to Aussie that its frightening. I just realised it again when I saw the latest sire lists.

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Oh dear...at least you'll get an A+ for naive stupidity Lloyd, even if you mean well.

I remind you one more time, we decided to appoint an independent NZTR board so we could have an "independent" board and remove factionalisation and sector bias, which is what the business section article alludes to.

Answer me this zzz: how could we possible appoint 'independent' AND knowledgeable, competent people to this Board without them having had previous involvement/interest in either racing or breeding? No matter where they come from, someone will see them as being biased towards one group or another.

I'll ignore your silly analogy about Poms/cricket and the Olympics/medals and let others figure out any relevance it might have to what we're trying to discuss.

Fillies incentives/races are open to all zzz - not just big breeders. Wise up and take advantage of it. It's not the cause of all racing's woes.

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