Trots propping up racing in North

[Prodigious 111]

Half the card tonight at Alex Park is for trotters.

Four out of eight races.

 

Trotters have been punching above their weight all year long up north - and Alex Park has done well by providing decent stakes to race for.

Is this because more trotters, taking longer to mature, are available to race in their later years. 

Have pacers become a disposable commodity, if they don't run at 2 and 3, they are disposed of.

And if that is the case why do we throw so much money at 2 and 3YO pacers which is simply exacerbating this problem.

 

 

[eljay 1,723]

2 & 3 year old pacers usually end up in Aussie - especially those who show a little ability.      Aussies get them pretty cheap (a bird in the hand for Kiwi sellers)         Then 4 y.o.'s & older left here are either those that owners do not wish to sell or late developers, and even many of these cross the ditch to race in the Aussie back blocks.      At present there are 52 horses on the export list and if this is the average that equates to over 600 per year - a few races!!     Sure the occasional stallion returns to US and yearlings purchased by Aussies at the sales are included also our stock doing a raid for the big races in Melb/Syd but it still is a sizeable number of horses.      Of course, the ATC has increased stakes in hopes attracting horses to race there but as we see the same horses get the thick end of the purse and the majority just make up the number!

[tim vince 985]

how do u account for more horses on sunday at the thames meeting Lloyd.

 

to be fair there has never been a better time to own a  decent  horse in the north island and I think that is going to  apply for quite a few years to come- good stake money and small fields.

 

with breeding numbers still on the decline (I think they are) I cant see bigger numbers anytime soon.

 

the trouble with that is smaller fields means declining turnover and declining interest.

 

I spoke on Wednesday to a person with a 3 horses stable- they  have had horses forever and they have called time had enough he said.- suspect no one their to replace those getting out.  sad really.

 

but of course you can say that of golf- memberships declining and age of members steadily going up. so we haven't got it to ourself.

 

golf courses are selling valuable  land and moving out of town to new courses.

 

Hope it never happens to alexpark.

[eljay 1,723]

Sunday more horses.   Friday bigger stakes.      Look at your race Tim (and they squaregaiters) only 7 chasing the big stake.     Good for you - less to beat.     Bad for turnover for club.    Field of 9 Sunday.   Probably some could have doubled upp - they do when they go to Palmy!

[what a post 811]

 Many good reasons mentioned in this thread on why harness racing is in decline.

 The one obvious reason not mentioned in this thread is the integrity issue.  I have been reading a story  on Jeff Gural ( who runs the meadowlands plus other tracks) on the internet from last month.   At one point he was asked a question . It read "what is your reaction to those who say horse racing (in the usa) has one of the most stringent drug testing protocols of any sport and even then only a  small  percentage of horses get positive tests'.  His answer.   " I think that's a joke. I just think that's a joke"     

[Jazz 62]

Has the proportion of trotting mares being bred vs pacers increased (realise overall numbers are declining)? Or more pacers with ability exported and average horses turned over due to limited opportunities - giving the illusion there are more trotters going around?

I think it's great that more races are being carded for trotters and most clubs now have stakes for the lower grades at least on par with equivalent graded pacers. If only the same consideration would be given to the higher grades as well. Disgraceful that there's at 50k gap between trotters and pacers at the Jewels and our two elite races for trotters are worth so little comparatively. Doesn't send a particularly good message to existing or perspective breeders and owners of trotters regarding the value of their product.

[Prodigious 111]

It's not even close to being a fair distribution.

A quick read through the hrnz site major races, and totting up the prizemoney and I figured the 2YO pacers  have 14 races for $1.372M in stakes which is about 5 and a half times what the trotters get with 4 races worth $243K. 3YO pacers  have 17 races for $2.019M  which is 3 and half times what the trotters get with 8 races worth $389K. And its even worse at  4YOs where the pacers have 10 major races for  964K which is not far short of eight times what the trotters get with just two races worth a measly 124K - and one of them is the Jewels at $100K.

 

Yep. Poor cousins. Not half.

[eljay 1,723]

Jazz - many potential broodmares are being exported as race horses so the quality of the broodmare pool is no doubt being thinned.    Most of out top broodmares nowadays are owned by the studs rather than the individual breeder.

[designer 17]

I read somewhere in HRNZ that the prize pool is split according to numbers Pacing vs Trot.

2124 Pacers bred this year vs 561 Trotters.

74% Pacers / 26% Trotters

[Johnevans 71]

Still not right though as the main focus should be on betting generated and trotters are clearly generating more turnover per race these days. So in effect trotters are being ripped off to pay for pacers stakes.

[Johnevans 71]

Rowe Cup Night order of highest to lowest turnover

 

1, Trot Rowe Cup Win Pool, $58,000 Place, $37,000

2, Pace NZ Messenger Win $54,000, Place, $35,000

3, Trot Trotting Derby Win $45,000, Place, $18.000

4, Trot C3 - C6 Trot  Win $42,500, Place, $19,000

5, Trot C1 - C2 Trot Win $32,000, Place, $21,000

6, Pace 2YO Fillies Win $29,000, Place, $19,000

7, Pace C1 - C3 Pace Win $27,000, Place, $22,000

8, Pace C1 Pace Win $25,000, Place, $15,000

9, Pace Mares Pace Win $25,000, Place, $10,000

10, Pace C2 - C4 Pace Win $24,000, Place, $17,000

11, Pace C3 Pace Win $21,000, Place, $5,000

[Jazz 62]

I read somewhere in HRNZ that the prize pool is split according to numbers Pacing vs Trot.

2124 Pacers bred this year vs 561 Trotters.

74% Pacers / 26% Trotters

Bit of a catch 22 if foal percentages are the sole driver for calculating the split. There is very little incentive to breed more trotting mares under the status quo which in theory would be needed to drive the ratio up and hence get a bigger bite of the stakes.

While stakes for average horses are on par with pacers (not saying they're necessarily good), generally trotters take more time so the overall spend by the owner will be higher before there is any hope of a return. If you're lucky enough to breed or purchase a nice horse (having spent at least as much to get to that point as with a pacer) you know that you'll ultimately be racing for less and if a commercial breeder your yearlings are worth less.

Wondering if this is on the radar for HRNZ, not even under consideration or another item in the too hard basket?

[tim vince 985]

u could double up Lloyd but you go up 1 grade for half the stake- handicapping as we all know needs to change- u cant equate the maiden winners today most of who walked up the lane to a 2 .42 maiden win on a Friday- both get penalised the same.  I would say that none of the maiden winners could run near the money in a decent Friday maiden

[eljay 1,723]

Yes Tim - but as you know, up to now anyway, HRNZ don't want a bar of any new system.    But, of course, that no reason for giving up.     Perhaps it is one of those lumps swept under the carpet, problem for them is it wont go away.      

[tim vince 985]

owners are flying out the door-

[Johnevans 71]

All it is, is that HRNZ and all the clubs are stuck in the 1970s.

 

Like I have said about all the country cups. Many of them are small fields with very small turnover. And why should the same pool of C2 to C6 pacers get to run in $20,000 country cups week in week out and the equivalent trotters run for $7000 at the same meetings even though they create higher turnover regularly?

 

The NZ Met and Auckland do a good job with paying out similar stakes to the trotters in all grades except for the big races. Why is the gap for Group races so big when the betting Is stronger in the trots?

 

The NZ Cup is the only pacing race with a massive turnover today. The Auckland Cup is no bigger than the Rowe Cup today so Why then the huge difference in Stakes? Even worse are all the big 2 and 3 year old races like the derbies. The trotting derbies are generating bigger turnovers but run for a quarter or third of the money. In the case of the Jewels it's two thirds $100,000 compared with $150,000.

 

We all agree that things are not great and in fact stagnant with the industry. Is it time to push for a change and get more into trotters. That's all they have in Europe. Just trotters with no pacers at all.

 

There is the old chicken or the egg question here too like do the clubs and HRNZ increase opportunities for trotters leading to the horsemen wanting more trotters because I think owners would be happy to follow this or do the horsemen get into trotters more first?

 

Well they won't as long as the trotter keeps getting treated like second cousins. So I think it's up to the clubs and HRNZ.

[designer 17]

Sad to see only 3 noms for Cambridge 3yo Trotting Stakes

[tim vince 985]

the costs are the real problem guys I have 3 horses  2 now  in work last month the vet bills were 2k plus u don't have to be a scholar to figure  winning a 5500 race with one of them basically only pays transport  and vet-- we don't have to have horses so im not complaining but perhaps u can see the futility of running in cheap races incurring a penalty if you think you are chance of winning at Auckland on a Friday.

 

the challenge is  to up the minimum stakes - we don't need more at Auckland. Cambridge is a great club who I love supporting and they have good administrators but they are stuck with not a prime slot so I believe the funding model needs to bring the stakes for them but it is not easy- 

 

the top is going good now time to help the rest.  In the north a priority should be helping Cambridge- we cant afford such a great club to be a poor cousin- maybe get them to minimum 8k-  go Cambridge they are great.