NZTR please explain

[Michael Roustoby 292]

how come yesterday at te rapa a so called "feature meeting" the maiden chase and maiden hurdle were being run for "industry meeting" prizemoney???

 

and we are being told of the concern of jumps racing fields dwindling.

geez i wonder why that is.

 

jumps racing doesnt get the support from the top it needs.

if you want more jumps horses  you need more prizemoney.

 

its alot of work and expense getting a jumper up and going and when you win on a feature day you get peanuts.

 

how can trainers convince owners to race a jumper when its clearly a bad investment.

[tackled 41]

I think when you see only five horses nominated for a $30,000 hurdle at Riverton, and three of them maidens, it shows that jumps racing is pretty much stuffed in this country, in the SI and Central Districts anyhow.

I am a jumps fan myself, but it is becoming apparent that interest has pretty much died and we need to move with the times. I thought there might have been a future for it, with hurdlers especially, but there is just no interest.

It obviously is not just the stake levels. We are just not breeding the right types of horse anymore and the trainers and owners have lost interest.

The South Island needs to scrap jumps racing altogether and probably construct an allweather track inside the grass track at Riccarton and just carry on through the winter with flat horses. Trentham probably needs to close down for three months during the winter. The sort of plodding through the mud racing they provide has lost its appeal for the modern punter.

[Michael Roustoby 292]

thats the attitude that is stuffing nz racing at the moment. its too hard so lets scrap it and "move with the times".

 

nz racing doesnt have alot going for it. its becoming a pre training centre for asia.

 

the south island struggles due to lack of jockeys for schooling and lack of facilities.

 

trainers and owners have only "lost interest" because they want to make money out of racing not throw it away.

 

i have only been in nz for 6 years but im assured by others in the jumps fraternity that this is a problem that has been going on for along time and the racing board arent doing anything to encourage jumping,quite the opposite actually.

 

trainers know a good investment when they see it and if the rewards were there alot more would race jumpers.

look at how australia have turned it around. jumps racing was on the deck 2 years ago. now it is thriving and new trainers e.g Gai Waterhouse are training jumpers.

wave a bone in front of a dog and he'll get excited.

 

i see no one from NZTR have responded.

[tackled 41]

Sadly Michael, its just not the sort of thing that interests most people.

I think if it was properly promuted and funded there would be a future for jumps racing, but it needs a buy in from everyone which just isn't happening.

[Trump 2,741]

Michael, what you are saying is incorrect. Jumps racing is not thriving in Australia - it's hanging on by its fingertips. As for Gai training jumpers? There is no Jumps racing in Sydney(NSW) or Brisbane(QLD). Victoria is struggling to keep it going mainly because the Victorians are the last of the connection to English style of racing etc. nobody punts on them so stakes are provided/propped up, from non jumping revenues. Every time a horse falls, a huge gasp can be heard from the nation watching, Patrick White (journalist) renews his anti jumps crusade, the RSPCA points the bone at racing industry and to top it off, the Society of Cruelty to Animal butters go berserk! All good news stuff to go with the girl jockey fights, sisters sleeping with each others husbands, Gai calling Singo a sham, drunk etc and high profile legal man, Chris Murphy calling Gai a failed actress(I thought she was a good actress!) who was married to a perjurer! So jumps has no chance long term in Oz and is struggling to stay alive in Victoria. So what chance has jumps got in NZ when flat racing is dragging its arse along the ground due mainly to the vested and non-visionary, lack of will and self-interested clowns that "really" are in charge of driving NZ racing forward. Now compare that with the action that's going on in Qld, that could (according to my reliable sources on the inside) result in someone spending time in the can. The joint is being shaken to its bones by a new interested govt and Racing body. Jumps racing? It won't exist in the medium to long term.

[biff 2,158]

Michael, what you are saying is incorrect. Jumps racing is not thriving in Australia - it's hanging on by its fingertips. As for Gai training jumpers? There is no Jumps racing in Sydney(NSW) or Brisbane(QLD). Victoria is struggling to keep it going mainly because the Victorians are the last of the connection to English style of racing etc. nobody punts on them so stakes are provided/propped up, from non jumping revenues. Every time a horse falls, a huge gasp can be heard from the nation watching, Patrick White (journalist) renews his anti jumps crusade, the RSPCA points the bone at racing industry and to top it off, the Society of Cruelty to Animal butters go berserk! All good news stuff to go with the girl jockey fights, sisters sleeping with each others husbands, Gai calling Singo a sham, drunk etc and high profile legal man, Chris Murphy calling Gai a failed actress(I thought she was a good actress!) who was married to a perjurer! So jumps has no chance long term in Oz and is struggling to stay alive in Victoria. So what chance has jumps got in NZ when flat racing is dragging its arse along the ground due mainly to the vested and non-visionary, lack of will and self-interested clowns that "really" are in charge of driving NZ racing forward. Now compare that with the action that's going on in Qld, that could (according to my reliable sources on the inside) result in someone spending time in the can. The joint is being shaken to its bones by a new interested govt and Racing body. Jumps racing? It won't exist in the medium to long term.

 

Trump, you had me til you said you thought Gai was a good actress.....you must be writing from an aged/dementia facility, surely....in which case the staff will be round soon to serve your jelly and ice cream and wipe your chin....I jest. you are correct re jumps here....they tried jump racing here in Syd, but it turned into a rort......Gai wouldn't have a clue how to train jumpers...how could she. the only jumping Gai has done is with Robbie, and that by looking at the two of them is sometime well in the past,,......thank God.    BTW.......the bullring doesn't count Gai.

[Michael Roustoby 292]

Gai recently took out her jumpers licence and had a horse set for warrnambool who went amiss.

 

the prizemoney is very strong and the quality of horse is on the improve in australia.

australian trainers are paying good money for jumpers at the moment so the momentum is there,prizemoney has gone through the roof  so its hardly gripping on by the skin of its teeth.

 

i love how you try and make your point more dramatic by saying the whole nation holds its breath when a horse falls.

i was under the impression from the rest of your post no one was watching.

 

anyway lets not stray from the point in question. there are many people in NZ who make their livelyhood from jumps races and at the moment they are being let down by an administration who clearly doesnt give a damn about them.

 

winter flat racing is not exciting and i dread the day when the highlight of winter is the winter handicap.

 

jumps racing is a vital part of the racing calendar in my opinion.

 

the whole point of my post is jumps racing is getting the short end of the stick.

maiden flat races were all worth the $12.5k prizemoney promised under the new scheme,jumping got $7k.

all i want is an explanation why that was the case.seems very unfair to me and many people have spoken to me and agreed.

 

not asking for special considerations,just a level playing field.

[biff 2,158]

Gai recently took out her jumpers licence and had a horse set for warrnambool who went amiss.

 

the prizemoney is very strong and the quality of horse is on the improve in australia.

australian trainers are paying good money for jumpers at the moment so the momentum is there,prizemoney has gone through the roof  so its hardly gripping on by the skin of its teeth.

 

i love how you try and make your point more dramatic by saying the whole nation holds its breath when a horse falls.

i was under the impression from the rest of your post no one was watching.

 

anyway lets not stray from the point in question. there are many people in NZ who make their livelyhood from jumps races and at the moment they are being let down by an administration who clearly doesnt give a damn about them.

 

winter flat racing is not exciting and i dread the day when the highlight of winter is the winter handicap.

 

jumps racing is a vital part of the racing calendar in my opinion.

 

the whole point of my post is jumps racing is getting the short end of the stick.

maiden flat races were all worth the $12.5k prizemoney promised under the new scheme,jumping got $7k.

all i want is an explanation why that was the case.seems very unfair to me and many people have spoken to me and agreed.

 

not asking for special considerations,just a level playing field.

 

Michael, I hate to be a killjoy, but Gai didn't train the horse.........it wasn't in her care, she wouldn't have a clue how to train a jumper....yeah get em fit no worry, but school em, take em to pony club, point to points......I was raised with up and overs mate....trust me, the box thorn fences on Dummy Myers old mans place [bill Myers] taught em to pick their feet up......that's where Dummy learned and Hawera pony club mate.....Gai, she learnt at gymkhana in Centennial Park here in Sydney......J Wheeler too. he's an old Taranaki boy.......

[Michael Roustoby 292]

i agree 100% with you biff and if she was joe bloggs from kembla grange she wouldnt have got her licence.

the horse was ready made when she bought it,then john wheeler and ciaron maher had stints with it.

she didnt train her melbourne cup runner up this season either in my opinion,it was a last minute purchase.

i have worked for gai in the past.

 

but the fact remains the bigger stables in aus are taking on jumpers now due to the large prizemoney on offer.

i have heard peter moody has a jumper too so see what happens there.

 

if moody and waterhouse have jumpers it will only be good for the game. if the bigger stables here had jumpers it would be great but why would they bother? they run a business not a charity.

 

if they were racing for 7k they wouldnt even entertain the thought.

 

my point was jumps racing in aus is attracting trainers who wouldnt normally do it becausemoney creates interest.

 

NZTR have not given us a reason for jumps races being run for industry money on a feature day. thats all i wanted out of this topic: an explanation to why this happend. didnt get one.

[biff 2,158]

i agree 100% with you biff and if she was joe bloggs from kembla grange she wouldnt have got her licence.

the horse was ready made when she bought it,then john wheeler and ciaron maher had stints with it.

she didn't train her melbourne cup runner up this season either in my opinion,it was a last minute purchase.

i have worked for gai in the past.

 

but the fact remains the bigger stables in aus are taking on jumpers now due to the large prizemoney on offer.

i have heard peter moody has a jumper too so see what happens there.

 

if moody and waterhouse have jumpers it will only be good for the game. if the bigger stables here had jumpers it would be great but why would they bother? they run a business not a charity.

 

if they were racing for 7k they wouldnt even entertain the thought.

 

my point was jumps racing in aus is attracting trainers who wouldnt normally do it because money creates interest.

 

NZTR have not given us a reason for jumps races being run for industry money on a feature day. thats all i wanted out of this topic: an explanation to why this happend. didnt get one.

Michael, you worked for Gai, so you would know of Des and Eunice at Flemo......they are real horse people and it would be them that trained any jumpers Gai purchased.....once they had made the transition from you lot in NZ of course. It's a shame we don't have jumps up here in SYD as it may just bring a few sticky beaks [Jack Nohi's] through the gates. 

You see Michael [and as an ex employee of Gai's you would be aware] the early morning starts at Gai's 2-30/3am......and the necessity at Caulfield to be off the track as the heath reverts to public ownership at 10-am prevents the real training and schooling of jumpers.....the bullring and pony fences are poor substitutes for an hour or two of hacking and schooling with riders that 1; want to be there 2; want to be there without hand out asking for overtime.

Its so labour intensive and the wages watchdogs here in AUS are like gestapo, and it's the country trainers like Houlihan/ Musgrove/and all the Warrnambool boys plus Smerdon of course, they can get round the salary police and the heavyweight jocks more inclined to stay back to school the potential jumpers in those country centres.

I've a mate training on the heath at Newmarket and he sent me an image a few days ago of them working horse on the limekilns after lunch!...imagine that here or NZ?......never going to happen and jumpers require time and effort.

Sheriff has been seen out jumping after midday too, rubber saddle and all.

[TOM(the other Molloy) 1,774]

i agree 100% with you biff and if she was joe bloggs from kembla grange she wouldnt have got her licence.

the horse was ready made when she bought it,then john wheeler and ciaron maher had stints with it.

she didnt train her melbourne cup runner up this season either in my opinion,it was a last minute purchase.

i have worked for gai in the past.

 

but the fact remains the bigger stables in aus are taking on jumpers now due to the large prizemoney on offer.

i have heard peter moody has a jumper too so see what happens there.

 

if moody and waterhouse have jumpers it will only be good for the game. if the bigger stables here had jumpers it would be great but why would they bother? they run a business not a charity.

 

if they were racing for 7k they wouldnt even entertain the thought.

 

my point was jumps racing in aus is attracting trainers who wouldnt normally do it becausemoney creates interest.

 

NZTR have not given us a reason for jumps races being run for industry money on a feature day. thats all i wanted out of this topic: an explanation to why this happend. didnt get one.

Unfortunately Michael there are several reasons for the demise in the jumping game here and a perceived rise in Aussie.

 

Firstly of course the old horse fanatic types - the farmers and the country life types - are all dying out or converting to dairying(mainly the former while the son takes over and does the converting).  If you know many dairying types you will know that they like to preserve every blade of grass lest they misss out on a cent or two at the factory so not much room for horses.  Hence the Hazletts, the Duncans, the Ruddenklau's, the Browne's(to a large extent), the Crooks etc etc etc are but a distant memory (except to those of Midget's advanced years - he remembers them like yesterday)

 

Second the owners can no longer afford to wait for jumpers when there is a royal show they will damage themselves just when they are coming right and are about to produce a cheque

 

But more importantly the Aussie Jumps 'attractiveness' centres in the main around two carnivals - Warnambool and Oakbank.  Both run at or around Easter when the weather is warm and most are still running around in shorts over there.  I, and I am sure many others, are a lot more enthusiastic about racing when the  pentrometer reading is in the little numbers and the sun is high in the sky.  The depths of July August are Ok when it is the National meeting but Oamaru on June 21st sort of battles to capture my imagination. 

 

In the same way you, if you are a Rugby fan, will be aware that club rugby(or league or golf or whatever) does not get the crowds or the interest it used to.  Though there is the other great reason for that and that of course is the TV.  When we can sit and watch Eagle Farm or Doomben on a good 3 the prospect of a heavy 11 Riverton lacks a bit of glamour.

 

I am not knocking South Island Racing I might add - God knows the North is often no better at that tiem of year.

 

Anyway I think the jumping in Aussie, far from going from strength to strength, appears to be booming because of the fact that the do gooders appear beaten off and that it is still really a novelty event.  Gai might talk about jumpers and Moody might show an interest but it will only be for something different and will not be taken too seriously 

 

It might be all right for the old money in England to be keeping the jumping season going but we are a long way away from that and the idea of a South Island all weather and confining winter racing to that appeals more and more every year 

[Michael Roustoby 292]

i dont disagree with alot of what you gentlemen say.

 

but we are getting off the point of my original post.

my main gripe is NZTR said all races at "feature meetings" will be worth a minimum 12.5k

but on saturday at te rapa the maiden jumping races were worth 7k and the opens 12k

 

why was this the case seeing it was a "feature meeting".

no one at NZTR can explain it.

 

dont write cheques you cant cash lads

[Trump 2,741]

Sorry Roustaboy, you're back peddling at 100mph. You said and let me quote, "jumps racing is thriving in Australia". Now that's a load of horse shit. So now you try to change the thrust of your thread! Jumps racing in Victoria and SA is struggling to survive - it doesn't exist anywhere else in OZ.

[Ashoka 1,179]

Trump...

 

Your pedantry exceeds the facts.

 

Mr Roustoby asked his question in the posting that initiated this thread.

He is correct when he states that his question is still to be answered.

He is fully entitled to put the original subject matter up-front once again in the hope of an informative response.

 

I believe that he is asking a valid question and that he deserves to be given an answer.

 

Cheers.

Ashoka

[Michael Roustoby 292]

thanks ashoka your spot on.

 

not back peddling just re introducing the original question as the topic has side tracked and it still hasnt been answered.

the whole reason i posted in the first place was to find out why the jumps races had less than the promised prizemoney.

now we are talking who trains gai's jumpers and why farmers are getting out of the game.

 

they got a full field plus emergencys at ballarat in the maiden hurdle on sunday,oakbank and warrnambool was successful with no horses injured. the "do-gooders" are silent.

there going alot better than we are here and alot better than they were 2 years ago.

look at the prizemoney they are racing for $250k for the grand annual at warrnambool. $100k race every 2 weeks over the main part of winter i believe. its in the best shape its been for some time.

 

roustoboy? blimey you missed your true calling in comedy.

at least i have the balls to put my name out there and my neck on the block and dont hide behind a phoney one.

i ask a simple question and have to cop crap from wannabe lawyers trying to qoute me on irrelevant conversation that has come up that  has no bearing on the answer im looking for.

 

a question that is still to be answered.

[Michael Roustoby 292]

and biff yes i do know des.

 

a lovely hardworking man who certainly new what he was talking about right down to his very accurate morning weather report.

is he stil around?

he'd be getting a bit long in the tooth now.

hope he is in good health. if he is im sure his still working.

[Trump 2,741]

Quote from Roustaboy, "Jumps racing in Australia is thriving at the moment, even Gai Waterhouse etc etc.....". That's horse shit and you know it Roustaboy. It is not thriving in Australia. They don't even have jumps in Qld or NSW. Victoria is hanging on by its fingertips and is the last bastion of jumps racing in Australia. A few more death dives and it will be gone. The punters don't bet on it so where's the stake money going to come from? Get real Roustaboy, jumps racing will die a slow death in Australian racing and is certainly not thriving - " In Australia".

[Catalano 951]

I love jumps racing and would readily rescue an old gelding to tackle the fences if the money was there.

[Michael Roustoby 292]

pull your head in trump.

 

your attitude is very childish with the "roustoboy".

maybe it is you who is truly the boy. please refrain from the schoolboy name calling.

get the chip off your shoulder.

 

i had a very fair question that i wanted answered (which it still hasnt been)

and now ive got a pest going on about australian jumps racing to me because i said it was thriving.

time will tell with that.

move on.

 

i train a jumper and know many others who do the same. many are scaling back their teams for 1 reason. lack of money.

many cant attract new owners because its hard to tell someone to invest big money and get little in return.

others are owner trainers who cant afford to have a big team as the returns dont cover the costs.

(and yes im aware its getting the same way on the flat too).

i just feel the jumping industry was treat unfairly last week at te rapa. fair comment?

 

do you have an answer to my original question trump or are you just going to keep having cracks at me to make yourself feel better for the shortcomings in your life?

 

it was why were the jumps races run for less than the 12.5k minimum prizemoney promised for all "feature meetings".

7k for maidens 12k for opens.

simple,fair question that deserves to be treated with respect and without childish banter. cheers.

[Trump 2,741]

Roustoby, I apologise for my genuine spelling mistake of your surname - sincerely. However, I also was responding to your statement that "jumps racing is thriving in Oz" when it clearly is not. You were quite misleading. At the moment, there are 2 main jumps meetings on one year. One is at Oakbank SA at Easter, the other is the 3 day flat & Jumps carnival at Warrnambool Vic. Outside these 2 meetings, there are a few jumps races in Vic. It is struggling to survive in Vic under intense pressure from anti-jumps groups, the RSPCA, the looney Greens, and a host of others. On top of that, punters don't like betting on them. End of story.

[biff 2,158]

and biff yes i do know des.

 

a lovely hardworking man who certainly new what he was talking about right down to his very accurate morning weather report.

is he stil around?

he'd be getting a bit long in the tooth now.

hope he is in good health. if he is im sure his still working.

They are still a team Michael, both older and wiser, two salt of the earth people that were gifted to Tommy and then of course Gai. he'll die with his boots on as will Eunice, but let's hope it's not for many a year to come......Flemington has changed so much,it's all new blood there with no atmosphere at all.....they'll deny that of course,the new trainers, but when everybody gathered at the half mile stripping sheds and the competition between the 'hill' and the on-course was at it's peak it was just brilliant....but thats the times and we move with them, time waits for no man.

[Michael Roustoby 292]

70 races at 10 tracks,each worth a minimum 20k with 15 races worth at least 100k in victoria.

the racing minister is pro-jumps racing apparently unlike the last whos wife was part of an animal welfare group.

the greens are just a pathetic excuse for a party and will never get into power.

animal welfare extremists should be ignored. the horses are well fed and well looked after.

 

i see nz has lost some of the better riders to aus. must be greener pastures.

 

they are in alot better shape than they were 2 years ago when all jumps races were banned.

they have been given a fantastic opportunity with prizemoney pumped into the game

 

when you look at it from where the nz jumping fraternity is standing they have hit the jackpot.

from an outsider looking in,it looks very positive.

if your on the inside and think otherwise ill respect your views and be very interested in reading them.

[Michael Roustoby 292]

I shall pass my question on via email to the big wigs at NZTR and see if i get an answer.

 

The side topic of australian jumps racing can be answered with time. I never intended to make this thread about AUS.

Ok it may be under pressure and not "thriving" (ill retract that word so we can all move on)

but at least they have been given a pretty big leg up of support from the board with increased prizemoney and get every opportunity to make it work unlike NZ. (that was the reason i mentioned AUS in the first place)

I hope they build on the opportunity and jumping does thrive.

 

I dont want that to overshadow the original topic which was "why were the jumping races run for less than the promised feature meeting prizemoney?".

And still no one can explain why and i think we deserve an answer.

 

 

Thanks to all for contributing and good luck.

[tackled 41]

Thought I might drag this one back up for a moment.

Two open class jumps at Riccarton yesterday, both worth $12,000. Maiden flat race on the day worth $12,500. Sounds a bit unfair to me.

The maiden only attracted 10 starters anyhow so the stake meant nothing to them. The same field would have turned up for $7,000. Putting some of the money from the maiden flat race into the open jumps might have shown the jumps people someone was interested.

Just out of interest I went back 30 years to the same meeting in 1983. The Homeby was worth $10,000 then, so it has gone up a massive $2,000 in 30 years. The maiden race has done a bit better jumping from $1,600 to $12,500 and the Brabazon has gone from $7,000 to $25,000.

Isn't it a pity to see the "time honoured" Haldon Plate dropped from its place as a well established race for maiden 2yos.

And I can't be certain, but I wouldn't be surprised if the on course turnover in 1983 of $267,267 has actually dropped over the years.

And just out of interest, the Brabazon that year was won by CW Johnson. K Morton even managed to ride a placegetter on the day.

[Ashoka 1,179]

Tackled...

 

Thirty years ago, these races were part of the build-up to the Grand National meeting at Riccarton and run in early August, I believe.

 

Yesterday, these races were the build-up to what?

 

The stake for, and the placement of, the Homeby Steeplechase constitutes an insult to the reputation of this race, given its illustrious history.

 

The people responsible for the planning of the overall racing calendar deserve to be shot.

 

Regards.

Ashoka