Auckland cup again proves you dnt have to be a stayer

[TBHunter 100]

Interesting

There was a steeplechase rider who rode in 500 races. he then went on to breed and train horses very successfully. He berd a horse named Nearco and to test him he devised a race over distance where Nearco raced two opponents, One a proven stayer and the other a fast sprinter. 

The stayer started the race at the start line with Nearco and the sprinter joined in half way through the race.. Nearco won the race.

.He then went to and won the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe. 

The trainer described Nearco as "not a true stayer", 

So when Opie says the horse isn't a true stayer then it must be that he simple has a different view point than others. and has ridden better stayers.

Correction. Nearco won the Grand Prix de Paris after this test. It was his son that won the lArc

[rdytdy 5,343]

Trump, on 07 Mar 2013 - 20:52, said:

3200m by any measurement, comes up the same distance. When you combine that with 2 runs uphill, how can some clowns doubt the 3200m credentials of Sangster? Or the Ellerslie 3200 as a good test? Fair dinkum, some of you are hard to please. It would be interesting to go back and see how many Auckland cup place getters have gone in the Melb cup versus place getters in the Wellington Cup. I would venture to say that Auckland Cup winners or placed horses have done equally as good if not better in Australia's 3200m

 

 

Backing up Trumps statement...you only have to count numerous great stayers of the past who couldn't manage to win an Auckland Cup!

 

Baz I would have thought that your statement would indicate the exact opposite. They were unable to win because the race wasn't a true test of the stayer and hence they were disadvantaged.

 

The Wellington Cup until recently was run three weeks after the Auckland Cup and in my living memory only three horses have been able to win the Wellington Cup in the same year.  1970 Il Tempo, 1984 Secured Deposit and 1992 Castletown.  

 

In my opinion, the size and openess of the Trentham track makes it a truer test of stamina than the Ellerslie track.    

[Trump 2,741]

Maybe, but I think the Auckland Cup place getters have a far better record in Oz over the last 20 years than the WC horses. How can a 3200m over a relatively flat course be a better test than a course with 2 hills to climb during the race twice!

[Idolmite 2,567]

If it happens to be a 'Big Wet' on the first Tuesday in November a lah Van Der Hum......... don't be surprised to definitely see him there.

Two Miles with real cut in the ground may in fact bring him right into contention.... whilst hindering others.

 

 

So it would be helpful to get a weather forecast now, to ensure he remembers to get ready AND turn up eh what?

[Insider 3,985]

Maybe, but I think the Auckland Cup place getters have a far better record in Oz over the last 20 years than the WC horses. How can a 3200m over a relatively flat course be a better test than a course with 2 hills to climb during the race twice!

Now I know why those English horses are so good when they get on those flat courses in Australia. It is because they raced up hill and down dale in England, just like at Ellerslie.

[Ashoka 1,179]

Auckland Cup...

 

It is my understanding that the Auckland Cup had a reputation for being a "soft" two mile race before the track was renovated but that the said renovations "toughened" the racing experience.

 

I would appreciate being apprised of the nature of the alterations to the track and when such took place.

 

Thank you.

Ashoka

 

I posted the above some days ago. I believe that the information I am requesting will enhance the present discussion. I had hoped not to have to bother the ARC but if this information is not present within our Forum group, I will take that step in the next few days.

Thank you.

 

Ashoka

[Blue 1,099]

Now I know why those English horses are so good when they get on those flat courses in Australia. It is because they raced up hill and down dale in England, just like at Ellerslie.

 

Pffffftt.........I doubt a wee rise in elevation hardly constitutes 'up hill and down dale' and a few races at Ellerslie would make any difference to a horse's ability to stay.

[rdytdy 5,343]

Maybe, but I think the Auckland Cup place getters have a far better record in Oz over the last 20 years than the WC horses. How can a 3200m over a relatively flat course be a better test than a course with 2 hills to climb during the race twice!

 

 

Seeing that you are going in a circle then there must be downhill section also Trump, or had you overlooked that.

 

However it is the very difference between the Ellerslie track and the Trentham track that creates a difference in race tempo and this is the reason why Trentham has been long regarded as more of a test for stayers.

 

At Ellerslie they quite often button off and take and hold and it is also downhill from the 800m to 400m where they gather them ready for the run up the straight. So a number of horses that aren't genuine stayers get a chance for a breather during the running and a softish run from the 800m to the 400. Thus by having something in reserve they can get the last 400m at Ellerslie.  

 

At Trentham the pace is usually more genuine and they don't get the chance to relax/button off. Also the pressure goes on a lot earlier at Trentham from as far out as the 600m-800m and the race therefore becomes one of being able to sustain a good gallop all the way and survival of the fittest from the 600-800m to the post. 

 

The big roomy Trentham track and the way the race is run often gives those stayers that come from well a fair way off the pace as well whereas at Ellerslie we often see an on pace bias (related to track shape/tempo).

[Gruff 2,809]

Usain bolt as an example,if he were to enter an 800 m race which was largely uncontested He would be very hard to outsprint,stayers only come to the fore in 'competitive' events.The auckland cup the last two years has been run around 3.25 which rates around a 1.42/1.43 mile rate,a far cry from the sea swift,darias fun kotare chiefs at 1.38 .True staying tests are only seen with competition,as bart cummings quoted'all horses can run two miles'

[TBHunter 100]

Usain bolt as an example,if he were to enter an 800 m race which was largely uncontested He would be very hard to outsprint,stayers only come to the fore in 'competitive' events.The auckland cup the last two years has been run around 3.25 which rates around a 1.42/1.43 mile rate,a far cry from the sea swift,darias fun kotare chiefs at 1.38 .True staying tests are only seen with competition,as bart cummings quoted'all horses can run two miles'

 3200m in 3:25 = 1:43.01

3200m@1:38 old mile pace  = 3200m in 3:15 sec 

Working

1608/98sec=16.408 m/s x 60= 984.48m/min /3200 = .(307 recip 1/x) = 3.25mim or 3:15sec 

[Gruff 2,809]

1609.34 metres in a mile TB,but we get the drift.ellerslies undulations seem to balance out and average times across the board are similar to other 1800 m tracks(aprox)

[TBHunter 100]

1609.34 metres in a mile TB,but we get the drift.ellerslies undulations seem to balance out and average times across the board are similar to other 1800 m tracks(aprox)

LoL Thats a mistake I needn't have made, Ill use 1609 in future. However 1608 does divide by 4 nicely

[TBHunter 100]

Sectionals tell the story.
I've been looking at 3200m sectionals and I have more questions than answers but one answer I may have to the question why a jockey or any other rider may make the comment that a certain horse may or may not be a true stayer.
I've used the  1600m finish split times for 2010 Melbourne Cup as an example.
Flemington has a long straight so the first 1000m time is easy enough to work out at 1;04 or 57kmhr average.

The last 1000m takes 59.98 say 60kmh.
That leaves the middle 1200m which takes 82.89 seconds which is and average of 52 kmhr. 
I suspect the devil is in the 50m sectionals of this middle part of the race where the range of speeds is from somewhere in the 40s(kmh) up to 53kmhr
These horses are running two races here with a big fat rest in the middle,
Its a strategic race. 
That middle 1200m in the slow 47 - 53 kmh range allows the horse to flush out Lactic acid and re oxygenates the blood/Muscles
A true stayer ( by some peoples definition) will have a higher speed through this middle part
It would be very interesting to see the sectionals for some of the older 3200m races at say 3:19 or faster.

My guess is the difference would be in the middle 1200m. and these details could be used to judge the quality of the horses.
 
 

[porky 900]

I don,t know how to take all this...Gruffy you seemed obsessed with times...(you may well be justified) but surely track conditions,draws and run would determin times of individual horses sectionals.

 

In short I agree with rdy tdy ... Trentham suits come from behind types like Kiwi and Ellerslie suits on pace stayers like Sangster.

 

Without mentioning names...just in general I prefer my Melbourne cup runner to be in the top doz. runners and probably in the 2 wide train.

[TBHunter 100]

I don,t know how to take all this...Gruffy you seemed obsessed with times...(you may well be justified) but surely track conditions,draws and run would determin times of individual horses sectionals.

 

In short I agree with rdy tdy ... Trentham suits come from behind types like Kiwi and Ellerslie suits on pace stayers like Sangster.

 

Without mentioning names...just in general I prefer my Melbourne cup runner to be in the top doz. runners and probably in the 2 wide train.

For me Porky its about investigating the possible meanings of Opie"s comments and understanding where he was coming from.

By looking at sectionals of good track 3200's compared to slow ones and also looking at,say the 1988 and 2012 Ascot Gold Cup races, his comments can be put in perspective.

Its really about various types of stayers running on various condition tracks in various different countries.

Personally I enjoyed both the slow one pace 2 1/2 mile of the 2012 Gold Cup and the extreme pace of the 1988 race. (controversy aside) 

There is an inherent honesty to these staying races.

​This isn't to detract from Sangster or our 3200m Auckland Cup,

They are what they are, a mighty fine horse and a G1 race.