"white motherf...ers"

[Philocon 1]

well hone...were waiting

say your sorry for calling me a white ################

just like some on race cafe that claim what they would say to geoff small face to face...

i've got a few choice words i'd like to say to hone face to face..

and yeah he could well take a swing..but then again so may i..

at least.. he knows i won't eat him

He didn't actually call you personally a white MFer. Unless you assume that his reference to past exploiters referred to you or you think you have been putting forward the bullsh*t he referred to. However he does owe you, me and everyone else an apology for the offensive behaviour and language and his sightseeing trip to Paris when he was supposed to be representing us all at an international forum. you'll be pleased to know Sue Bradford & Helen Clark represented you at such gatherings and they didn't skive off somewhere else for private jaunts instead or send emails talking about MFers on their return.

People rabbitting on here about racism and you are making thinly veiled references to violence and cannibalism in the context of the argument. How can he be sure you won't eat him? Research has shown that your distant ancestors, like his and mine at some time practised cannibalism ocassionally. Why would he be more likely to revert to it than you...or me?

[Grahame Noblet 2]

No doubt I shall be taken to task for the following statement that the avowed intent of the Maoists is to use Maori for a means to revolution,the Race relations commissioner has a long history of communism having been a member of various organizations such as SUP,Maoist groups,Corso and many other extreme socialist groups,he famously stated that the Maori in NZ were treated like the the Afghans were treated by the Taliban.Who put this person in the position he now holds?With his background he really should be given the shove.

http://www.newzeal.blogspot.com/2006/10/who-is-joris-de-bres-html

[teletubby 1]

no prodigal son.. lavour party canibals not eating each other..

thats the labour party dikes

[Grahame Noblet 2]

URL is to long,try this:-

http://WWW.newzeal.blogspot.

continue with:- com/2006/10/who-is-joris-de-bres.html

[Philocon 1]

The Labour party is riddled with cannibals eating each other.

No politics is. All political parties are "riddled with cannibals eating each other" figuratively speaking. it's the nature of the game of the human condition. If I were to try to make a living collecting a dollar from everyone for the number of political leadership changes in all parties that were bloodless and seamless I'd starve and be buried in a pauper's grave pauper no matter how smooth they appeared publicly. Only difference is that parties of the left tend to do it more openly but recently parties across the spectrum have caught up on this and it is not unusual to see parties of all hues spill blood in public from time to time. Of course they all try to stage manage the events but humans are not always very stage manageable.

[Philocon 1]

No doubt I shall be taken to task for the following statement that the avowed intent of the Maoists is to use Maori for a means to revolution,the Race relations commissioner has a long history of communism having been a member of various organizations such as SUP,Maoist groups,Corso and many other extreme socialist groups,he famously stated that the Maori in NZ were treated like the the Afghans were treated by the Taliban.Who put this person in the position he now holds?With his background he really should be given the shove.

http://www.newzeal.blogspot.com/2006/10/who-is-joris-de-bres-html

When you start taking the rantings of right wing libertarian conspiracy theorists that see everyone with a leftist background as being part of a gigantic Maoist conspiracy to take over the country you probably should be taken to task especially when you see aid organisations such as Corso as part of that conspiracy. But it is hardly worth bothering responding to such nonsense but I have anyway 9as good a cure as any for insomnia at this time of night). Maybe you could add to the list of the great communist conspiracy people like former National Party PM Jack Marshall who was chair of the Victoria University Socialist Club in his younger days but later one of the countries most conservative PMs of recent years, Tom Shand a National govt Minister of Labour who had a left wing background in his student days and also Ralph Hanan National Minister of Justice in the 1960s who had a similar background in his youth. Many people in ACT had a similar leftwing background to Joris de Bres at the time he was in the organisations mentioned. Would you disqualify them too?

Oh well haven't got time to waste further on such nonsense as I have to do a thorough check for reds under my bed before I get to sleep tonight. Joris told me the Maoist revolution using Maori to achieve their aims is to start after breakfast tomorrow morning and I want to get up early have my tea and toast in plenty of time to make sure I don't miss it.

[Grahame Noblet 2]

When you start taking the rantings of right wing libertarian conspiracy theorists that see everyone with a leftist background as being part of a gigantic Maoist conspiracy to take over the country you probably should be taken to task especially when you see aid organisations such as Corso as part of that conspiracy. But it is hardly worth bothering responding to such nonsense but I have anyway 9as good a cure as any for insomnia at this time of night). Maybe you could add to the list of the great communist conspiracy people like former National Party PM Jack Marshall who was chair of the Victoria University Socialist Club in his younger days but later one of the countries most conservative PMs of recent years, Tom Shand a National govt Minister of Labour who had a left wing background in his student days and also Ralph Hanan National Minister of Justice in the 1960s who had a similar background in his youth. Many people in ACT had a similar leftwing background to Joris de Bres at the time he was in the organisations mentioned. Would you disqualify them too?

Oh well haven't got time to waste further on such nonsense as I have to do a thorough check for reds under my bed before I get to sleep tonight. Joris told me the Maoist revolution using Maori to achieve their aims is to start after breakfast tomorrow morning and I want to get up early have my tea and toast in plenty of time to make sure I don't miss it.

The key words in the above are "student, former and younger days";the difference is that de Bres has continued with that Socialist thinking.A right wing Libertarian is as believable to me as many of your personal idols are to you,not as the person writing on the NZ blog site is an idol of mine,I've never heard of him. :eek:

[Goodlobster 0]

This is what occurred with the Cheeky Darkie comment from Paul Holmes

Repairing the damage

* Radio Network accepts that the "cheeky darkie" comments were racist and a breach of good taste.

* Holmes broadcasts two apologies, and both he and the network send letters of apology to Mr Annan.

* Internal disciplinary action taken against Holmes.

* Broadcaster meets local Ghanaians and Race Relations Commissioner Joris de Bres.

* Radio Network staff receive training on racism.

* Donation (reportedly $10,000) made to Save the Children.

Now Phil PLEASE tell me how if that comment was considered Rascist how Harawira's wasn't.

Quick Poll, what would you rather be called a cheeky whitey/darkee or a white/black Motherf***er...and which comment(s) would you consider Rascist ? ? ?

Rascism goes both ways

[Properispomenon 1]

And, remember, GL, that the Holmes' comment - admittedly poorly thought-through - was clearly intended as a throwaway line.

Hone, though, appears to mean every last asterisk of his comments...

[Philocon 1]

This is what occurred with the Cheeky Darkie comment from Paul Holmes

Repairing the damage

* Radio Network accepts that the "cheeky darkie" comments were racist and a breach of good taste.

* Holmes broadcasts two apologies, and both he and the network send letters of apology to Mr Annan.

* Internal disciplinary action taken against Holmes.

* Broadcaster meets local Ghanaians and Race Relations Commissioner Joris de Bres.

* Radio Network staff receive training on racism.

* Donation (reportedly $10,000) made to Save the Children.

Now Phil PLEASE tell me how if that comment was considered Rascist how Harawira's wasn't.

Quick Poll, what would you rather be called a cheeky whitey/darkee or a white/black Motherf***er...and which comment(s) would you consider Rascist ? ? ?

Rascism goes both ways

Quite simple. The term darkie has long been associated with being used in the context of referring to people whose skin colours denotes them as being of an inferior race. It's in a similar vein to nigger & other such terms. Likewise the term "cheeky darkie" has often been used to imply a dark skinned person who didn't really know their place which was accepted was a lowly one compared to their white & lighter skinned superiors. Holmes probably isn't racist but that comment was no matter how throwaway and lighthearted it was.

I have never said that appropriate disciplinary action should not be taken against Harawira, in fact I believe it should. However while MFer is an insulting derogatory and offensive term with racial implications it is not in itself racist and adding what he did to it does not make it racist. Harawira was clearly referring to the Whites/Pakeha that have controlled this country since the first Parliament was set up not every one of us. Just as reprehensible but not necessarily racist even if you don't agree with his interpretation of our history.

As I have said before we tend to use the term racist too often and too lightly when other terms are more appropriate.

As for your suggested poll that is stupid. I would opt for neither. That's like being asked what sort of pedophile you'd prefer to be called - one that molested older or younger children. The answer is none of them. I have never said the comment was acceptable just what it is and what it is not.

Also you are wrong in saying racism goes both ways. It only goes one way and that is the person practising racism directing the effects of it on the victim of it. You cannot class a victim of racism as a racist when they react against an oppressor. However if you mean racism can be practised by anyone of any skin colour and ethnicity then that is correct. But what is often called racism isn't always racism or racist no matter how offensive it is or who says it.

[Philocon 1]

And, remember, GL, that the Holmes' comment - admittedly poorly thought-through - was clearly intended as a throwaway line.

Hone, though, appears to mean every last asterisk of his comments...

I agree with you I also believe Hone did believe every word of what he said and his qualified, sort of apologies to date indicate that.

The attacks against past policies taking Maori land depriving them of rights etc have been made often and accepted except by a few, which is why we have the treaty settlement process. But what is not accepted is the language Hone has used, the derogatory way he has attacked those he sees associated with such injustices and someone who was actually till then a supporter or at least sympathetic to much of what he was fighting for. But worse still is to try and justify his own political misbehaviour by citing those past injustices and others bad behaviour.

I would doubt if the incident has chnged Buddy Mikaere's overall views but it looks like it has changed his view of Hone and the Maori Party.

This Hone has done for the Maori Party what another pretend "Hone" did for the National Party many years ago. I was going to say he was a white skinned "Hone" but when his identity was revealed his face showed he was in fact a red skinned "Hone" Mind you there's hope for the real Hone yet because that "Hone" went on to become a cabinet minister.

[Grahame Noblet 2]

To interested posters,see NZ Bill of Rights Act section 61. re Racial harassment etc.

http://www.hrc.co.nz

My interpretation (and the whole definition of racial harassment is open to interpretation depending on ones' views are,left,right or middle)

of the section is that Harawira's outbursts are racist.

[Goodlobster 0]

Wake up Phil, your attempts at knowing all there is about Rascism is a joke...you know what I implied when I said Rascism goes both ways, I mean it isn't just White vs Black it is Black vs White as well....however in NZ it seems that we deem one a hell of a lot worse than the other.

You have your opinion and you have your right to that opinion... and to free speech.

As for your description of my "suggested" poll.

Well since I also have a right to my opinion I will tell you if someone called me "A cheeky white Sh!t" I wouldn't give a toss, If someone called me a "White Motherf**ker" I would probably be a little peeved.

Comparing that to molestation of kids....come on, you should write a column for the newspaper if you are that good at sensationalising a story

[owen 0]

Kennett has a long lost brother?

[newbee 0]

The censor saw fit not to put on my last post therefore I will not post on this site again, pity it is a case of rules for some and not others, goodbye.

[Breeder 609]

I think the question that hasn't been asked / debated is why did Buddy Mihaka (sp) released the email contents to the public ? Was it politics ? ( don't think so ).

Or was it because he found it all offensive and hypocritical like a lot of us.

[teletubby 1]

breeder, i agree with you.

buddy was discusded with hones comments thats whynhe went public... god knows i would have...

as for his mother..

yes most mothers would stick up for their sons but that woman is a nutta..

she should've been shot years ago...

oh thats right only hone can talk like that.. if i say it.. it's racist...

but if i swear my arse off thats ok as its the english colonist thing to say and do...

BULL**** HONE..

thats your new name or should i say thats what i translate your name from maori to english to mean...

[Goodlobster 0]

[quote="Philocon

Racism is determined by the nature and meaning of what is said or done, not who said it and whether it is offensive or not. Just because someone says something insulting about someone of a different race doesn't automatically make it racist. But that seems to be your limited understanding of it. No one is arguing that what Harawira said wasn't demeaning, stupid, insulting and totally inappropriate but that doesn't make it racist. If we start calling every insult someone casts against us racist simply because of their ethnicity then when genuinely racist remarks are made we will not take them as seriously as we should and perhaps fail, to recognise actual racist comments and behaviour.

Calling someone a MFer that you also identify as white is not racist any more than calling a Maori a MFer if you are white but both are insulting demeaning and unacceptable and certainly not to be be tolerated from an MP.

It's a bit like the term Uncle Tom often used to describe someone regarded as a sellout to his/her race. It is an insulting term but not racist.[/quote"]

Phil I heard De Bres this morning on Breakfast saying that The Comment was Rascist (he wouldn't say whether Hone was Rascist or not)....does the Race Relations commisioner not read your expert comments and opinions on here. Or will you finally pull your head out of (I better not say the first thing that came to mind haha) the sand and realise THE COMMENT WAS RASCIST....you can try and twist the words and the situation he said it in, but you must be trying to convince yourself, as it isn't washing with me and I suspect plenty of others who read your posts.

PS Hone becoming an MP confirms the old saying that you can't make a Silk Purse out of a Cows Ear

[Grahame Noblet 2]

Phil I heard De Bres this morning on Breakfast saying that The Comment was Rascist (he wouldn't say whether Hone was Rascist or not)....does the Race Relations commisioner not read your expert comments and opinions on here. Or will you finally pull your head out of (I better not say the first thing that came to mind haha) the sand and realise THE COMMENT WAS RASCIST....you can try and twist the words and the situation he said it in, but you must be trying to convince yourself, as it isn't washing with me and I suspect plenty of others who read your posts.

PS Hone becoming an MP confirms the old saying that you can't make a Silk Purse out of a Cows Ear

It's becoming more and more obvious that Joris de Bres is doing a U-turn,at first he said it was not racist and today on TV he said that it could be and owing to the number of complaints,they were looking into it.

[closet 0]

It's becoming more and more obvious that Joris de Bres is doing a U-turn,at first he said it was not racist and today on TV he said that it could be and owing to the number of complaints,they were looking into it.

"Whats good for the goose is good for the gander"

Everyone fill their boots up complaining about Hone, because the race relations get a complaint about every pissant remark made about a race or colour.

Now its us whiteys turn!

Why do we need a South African Race Relations director anyway!?! FFS!!

[macduff 0]

Oh PLEASE PLEASE -

Get Winston back ... so we can start to run the country in a decent respectable and honest manner ]

you cannot be serious faye If you are you must be as seriously delusional as the destiny cultists

[Philocon 1]

There is widespread agreement that what Harawira said is offensive and unacceptable and he should retract and properly apologise for it. No one or if anyone few and no one with any credible defence is defending what he said or did. However to determine a comment is racist purely on the basis of pressure, volume of arguments, complaints etc and to get some sort of imagined retribution for "white" people who have been the subject of past complaints is not the way to establish something. Yes the comments were racially based. Yes they were offensive generally and to the recipient of them. Yes the guy needs to be disciplined for it. But there is not unanimity on whether it is racist.

Racism is according to most definitions, a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and those racial differences determine inherent superiority of particular races or ethnicities.

The OED defines racism as a belief or ideology that all members of each racial group possess characteristics or abilities specific to their race, distinguishing it as being either superior or inferior to another racial group or racial groups. You'd be hard pressed to show that harawira actually says that in his comments. The UN Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination makes no mention of racism but covers all forms of racial discrimination referring to "...any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life." His comments could offend against some parts of that.

As I mentioned many complaints of racism including many referred to here are often not, including this one. They may be racially based, racially insulting and divisive as in this case and still call for the HR Commission and Race Relations Conciliator to be involved, even a breach of some laws, but that doesn't automatically make them racist. Racism and racialism are related but not the same thing.

The bigger issue I reckon is that Hone was using the example of past exploitation and past wastage of taxpayers money by non Maori politicians in the past to justify his behaviour and that is arrant nonsense. Even talk of repaying the cost of his sightseeing in France doesn't resolve it. The real issue is he was appointed to represent us at an international forum and chose to leave us unrepresented and go on a private sightseeing trip. If it was known in advance he did not intend representing us at that meeting the govt or Maori party could have nominated and sent someone who would have. But then on his return besides being abusive, racially divisive and insulting when challenged by one of his own people, he chose to justify it by referring to the very crimes of exploitation he says he is there to fight, as a precedent for his behaviour. That is the line of questioning Sean Plunkett took on Radio NZ this morning talking to the MP chair of Hone's Tai Tokerai electorate and she was far from convincing in her defence of him. Those who do try to justify what he has done seem to argue it was alright for to skive off and go sightseeing instead of attend a meeting on our behalf so long as he repays the cost as directed by the speaker of the House. Fact is that all the payments for his trip etc won't backdate his attendance at that meeting which is what he was there for. His outburst on return when challenged has added to and worsened an already bad situation compounding one lot of unacceptable behaviour with another and now he's publicly called for the execution of the leader of the opposition.

It's not about defending what he did because no one can, its about making sure when we accuse someone of racism or racist comments we have it right. Racism is a serious charge that has been responsible for horrendous injustices in the past not only abroad but here as well. To use it to describe every racially based incident and every offensive racial remark undermines the seriousness of real racism when it rears its ugly head.

[Philocon 1]

Wake up Phil, your attempts at knowing all there is about Rascism is a joke...you know what I implied when I said Rascism goes both ways, I mean it isn't just White vs Black it is Black vs White as well....however in NZ it seems that we deem one a hell of a lot worse than the other.

You have your opinion and you have your right to that opinion... and to free speech.

As for your description of my "suggested" poll.

Well since I also have a right to my opinion I will tell you if someone called me "A cheeky white Sh!t" I wouldn't give a toss, If someone called me a "White Motherf**ker" I would probably be a little peeved.

Comparing that to molestation of kids....come on, you should write a column for the newspaper if you are that good at sensationalising a story

I don't make any attempt or claim to know all there is about racism or any other topic. I just prefer to stick to what is accepted definitions and practice rather than let the public mood or gut feelings dictate things. It's not something that can be decided by public vote or how one feels at the time.

I agree that racism can be practised by any group or race but it's not group A vs group B or tooing and frooing between poles. It's one group practising it at the expense of another so in that sense it does only go one way. The danger is that once the exploited group gets free of the practice, they then choose to do the same to their previous oppressors and we have seen examples of that in Riwanda.

I was not comparing racism to child molesting at all no matter what way you chose to take it. I was making the point that it is ridiculous to give people a choice of what insults you wish to call them. None are acceptable and you can't downplay the seriousness of, or justify one by arguing it is less offensive than another.

[Philocon 1]

"Whats good for the goose is good for the gander"

Everyone fill their boots up complaining about Hone, because the race relations get a complaint about every pissant remark made about a race or colour.

Now its us whiteys turn!

Why do we need a South African Race Relations director anyway!?! FFS!!

Such a shallow view of such a serious topic probably shows why we need a Race Relations Commisioner.

We don't need a South Afrcan Race Relation director and you are the only person who has raised the question. We do however have and need a Race Relations Commisioner and your xenophobic comment is evidence of the need for one. We did have a South African in the job in Gregory Fortuin when it was called the Race Relations Conciliator but the current Commissioner was born in Holland and has spent most of his life in NZ.

[nahla 1]

BAD BREEDING.His mother is one of the most evil racist people in this country,if john key called someone a black mother fuka he would have been gone that day.I think pita sharples a true believer of what he peaches and wont want this lemon around any longer.