what a post

For example.That someone can have over 1000 drives in a season ,drive 99.9% of them expertly. I will tell you another story which I think reflects another aspect of these proceedings.. Very recently I was talking to a bloke moaning about his mate being caught D.I.C. that night. He told me a story about his mate breaking up with his partner who just happened to have a local cop for a son. He was adamant that the son of this fellows ex partner had deliberately targeted his mate, knowing that he drove home from the pub drunk. It was all the cops fault. He told me everyone at the pub was upset about it.. Strange but true.

How comments like the above help your argument is beyond me.

So Does that apply to my earlier comments about harness racing in the south island being the most honest it ever has been? Does it apply to when I have commented on another forum that two of those involved are the top 2 drivers that punters have the most faith in, as far as getting results and always giving thier horses everyone opportunity to win. The problem with operatio inca is there is no context,it doesn't look at the big picture. It is unforgiving in that it can isolate actions, inaccurately reflecting the overall honesty of those involved. But that in no way excuses actions which undermine the confidence of very people you need for the industry to survive(the punter) . That's why I support what operation inca stands for.

Yes I expressed my belief the nelson race involved a driver of a hot favourite who did not try,and believe there was motive for such actions. Operation Inca has laid charges relating to that race which appear to implicate other drivers in that race of being aware of the non trying drivers actions. I'm not afraid to say it. All people like yourself want to hear is views which match your own. Correct me if i'm wrong,but are there not court cases still pending. I have pointed out in several posts that charges will change,some will proceed,some will not, Some will plead to lesser charges after discussions with the prosecution. Exactly what has happened so far. As to Nigel Mcgrath, i've never commented on him or inferred anything about him. Yet you want me to apologise for something which I haven't said??

Your right in that it appears Mcgrath has suffered an injustice. Your jumping the gun if you think this will have a domino effect for all concerned... McGrath may have been dragged into this by association, which of course is not reasonable without sufficient evidence.. As to McGrath ,I don't know anyone who thinks he was a major influence in any of this,,however I can't see anything changing people's opinions about the remaining cases at this stage. There's still a long way to go.

I've spoken to your doctor and I asked him if you suffered from insanity. He told me No,you seem to enjoy it.

I'm saying it is legitimate if used as the rules allow. My own personal take is if used for the purposes promoted by those involved then I can't see what's wrong . The debate seems to relate to whether it is being used for performance enhancement. I just haven't read enough information on that side of things to be convinced of that. I haven't researched it as much as you or others have. What I do believe is, it is not the pre race performance enhancer which gives the stables behind the product the edge. It makes no sense to intentionally make available a product to everyone which reduces your advantage over them.. I can see why authorities have suggested a 7 day rule,, as its promoted use is not for a pre race performance enhancement, so if its being used as intended then why should that upset anyone.

Lots of things in the past that were seen as legitimate that no longer are. Just as there are threshold levels for some things that never were. Cobalt,levamisole, etc. Nothing new in that.

Or those within the industry could reflect on how this all came about. Reflect on how past similar behavior in previous decades has led those currently involved to believe there are no consequences. Reflect on what is right and wrong, what examples they want to set for the current crop of young people trying to make a living within the industry. Instead of directing your frustration towards authorities who enforce the rules, use that frustration to put in place an ongoing, plan ,once this is all over, to support those currently charged which would address the financial and mental health issues that all would suffer from to varying degrees. There has to be support networks established for each and everyone of those charged,. You have to have a plan b if some charges are proven. I hope once these cases have been finalized that you use your undoubted skills and focus on how you can help those involved, which I do believe is your goal. It can't be all about revenge.

Isn't that what some of us have been predicting from the start? Nothing out of the ordinary there. Still.if there is no evidence of any guilt, as you keep telling us, then those involved will no doubt continue to plead not guilty to the fresh charges.

Any horse that is subject to a scratching penalty has its racing status as "stood down" until that scratching penalty expires. In all reality many of the'"5 day stand down with vets certificate supplied"' are not based on actual veterinary issues that would stand scrutiny.

Isn't the difference Auckland has tried to run junior driver only races, but due to the lack of numbers they have changed to the southland system of having penalty free wins if driven by a junior,or higher rated horses being race eligible if driven by a junior. In other words Auckland have moved away from what you suggest because of a lack of support numbers wise( for differing reasons) In the amateurs case, Auckland chooses not to run amateur races, despite being better supported numbers wise than most races currently run by auckland,, So you have the ATC with a deliberate policy of excluding a resource which they complain they don't have enough of. The retention of juniors and other younger stable workers is a problem,but that is just another facet of the industry which doesn't seem to have a successful working strategy.

It wasn't a surprise to see 3 of the 7 runners gallop in Fridays monte,as they nearly always gallop in every race they have,,so surely racing in unfamiliar circumstances it was almost inevitable. The very slow first half of the mile also contributed as it lead to a bunched field... Also they were all woman riders.,some who couldn't seem to restrain their horses when they galloped.,that also I didn't think was much of a surprise. As far as a spectacle goes ,it was a disappointment. From a betting perspective it was just the same as any race. You just analyze the form and data you have and make your investments accordingly. Punting to me is about getting the best return you can, irrespective of whether it is a high quality or low quality field. The monte paid out ,just like any other race.

Some simply don't agree with what he says sometimes, or more precisely fails to say, because they have different opinions.. simple as that. You seem to infer mick Guerin is flash,posh and has $. I am unaware of that,and well done to him if he does have a few $, Everyone has different types and levels of involvement in the sport ,and you are always going to get differing opinions because of that,.People like to see an all inclusive public voice for their thinking,and I think some don't think mick Guerin does that on some issues. Hence the criticism he may get.

Theres no doubting Mick Guerin is a knowledgeable man, Nowdays i think he makes the more run of the mill harness meetings enjoyable to watch when he is the studio presenter. He seems to have a better choice of words now. In the past he had alienated some viewers and horses connections with unnecessary derogatory comments on the possible quality of the horses running, effectively undermining the achievements of the successful connections who have friends, work colleagues and family watching. That was in the past,now he mostly has a far more respectful choice of words. I think he still lacks balance when it comes to discussing possible negatives when it comes to certain stories and stables.He could do that in a respectful way but simply chooses not to go there. For example his misleading information about the atc . That's my opinion of mick Guerin.

They must have seen the disaster unfolding, but how do you manage something with so many factors out of your control.

No work or trots on today so I have done a bit of reading on the causes of lameness in standardbreds. One of the studies was in Europe where they obviously only have trotters,however I think their findings would still be relevant here. The main points as far as causes seemed to be.(relating to Musculoskeletal injuries) Training on hard surfaces all the time. Speed needs kept in check if that is the only surface you use. Most injuries occur on the inside leg which is why working both ways is needed. Ideally training should involve a mix of surfaces and directions. Age did not appear to be a risk factor. Intense training techniques on the "right surfaces" commonly employed by the faster horses did NOT result in increased likelihood of exercise related injuries. High intensity training seemingly being protective for stress fracture development. the more exercise a horse accumulates the less likely they are to sustain injury. racing intensity and race numbers were shown to be a protective factor. veterinary treatments to solve gait or subtle lameness increase the risk of injury,..... in my opinion this relates to the all stars as we are often hearing about veterinary treatment. Obviously it pays off short term,but is a negative factor as relates to possible future injury Horses like turn it up and other all star horses are only sparingly raced, targeting the bigger races, Going on what I have read this is a probable factor in their injury rates(my opinion) . And that is what we are talking about on this thread, not their level of success.

Well Mick Guerin back on the job tonight by at least interviewing the interim ceo of the atc. Apparently racing as normal despite going from making $30 million to instead losing $40 million. A turnaround of $70 million. Seems they will have to sell whatever assets they have to spare. All very sad,will anyone be held accountable?

Tasman man I said i believe the all stars have a high % of their horses develop injuries. If you want clarification ,i am commenting on their top horses. That is who I referred too in my original post. That's my opinion. If you believe I have formed that opinion because of envy and jealousy ,then why did you see the need to give the well thought out possible contributing causes. We obviously have different perspectives, as does jack.

You make some good points,but unfortunately you resort back to the "envy other peoples success" thing at the end. I'm not sure what you mean by quoting gossip as fact as relates to this thread.. The media has widely reported what I said about the soreness issues that the current group of top horses trained by the all stars are having. That information has been supplied by the all stars team themselves They seem quite open about it. They are the facts ,are they not?. .

Thats a shame,. The stable does have a high % of horses with injuries though. This year alone you have their top 2yo,top 3yo,and top 4yp pacers all having knee operations. Then you have their top 2 3yo trotters with apparent soreness issues .

You have to correctly identify the cause before you develop solutions. There are multiple reasons for the lack of numbers. Strategic policies need to be developed to address each issue which contributes. For example if overnight 10 different licensed persons turned up with a couple of horses,are there the facilities available to train from. Is there any type of networking amongst trainers as to advise others of facilities being available for lease. Does there need to be an attitude change from licensed holders with properties with spare facilities who currently moan about lack of numbers,but in the next breath say no to someone wanting to rent a couple of empty paddocks and stalls from them. In my opinion for progress to be made everyone needs to be unselfish and look to the greater good. There are many links in the chain,and the failure to address anyone of them weakens the chain. IT sounds like the 2 workshops being held by the atc are a good starting point. Having the right group of people leading the implementation of developed policies is very important. You need people who are respected and are known to get results along with being impartial.

Another take would be to say despite trying alternatives, no matter what the rating system,n o rating system will work because you don't have the numbers. I believe your looking at the symptoms ,not the cause.

Nelli Your 3 year old filly winning her first race at taranaki should not have had to race hardened rating 60t trotters . If that happened today it would be a rating 55 after its first win and would lose points with each unplaced start thereafter. There should be enough horses round the rating 55 grade or just below.. If there isn't in your region, well that is a lack of numbers problem. You say the worst thing was for your 3y o to win its first start,because it was initially uncompetitive in the next grade. No,the worst thing would have been for your trainer/driver to have deliberately not tried to win,as that would undermine integrity in the sport. Winning first up anywhere is quite an achievement. As to your older horse who was once in the very top grade. I have noticed it is unfair on horses in this grade who continually run well.but in all reality are at a stage in their careers where they are not quite competitive against the very best. It's also unrealistic for these type of horses to race from big handicaps in lower grade races, Anyway I really think the clubs want them in the higher grade races to make up the numbers in already small fields. Why else would they treat them as they do. Its a policy that ultimately leads to the early retirement of some very good horses who could still race on for 3 or 4 years. More conditioned races need to be programmed for these horses where they are competitive. Their plight is much worse than your 3 y old totter in my opinion. They are a resource which is under appreciated,even neglected. I agree,as do I think 95 % of those involved . Doesn't there have to be a whole new mindset from those up your way?. The most obvious example is the ATC doesn't even run races for amateurs. Why,it just doesn't make any sense not to use them when they lack numbers.. They would rather no one turn up to the races. Addington appreciates them,,and look at the horse numbers in Canterbury. It must be getting close to the point where the problem in the north island is irreversible,too many participants have already given up. Is one of the major problems for want to be participants is there is no where to train from even if you wanted too,or are their still facilities reasonably priced available?

Does that mean you don't have any major issues with the points system? But you are unhappy with those who compile the fields,and those who decide what marks horses should start off? In a way over riding the points handicapping system leading to inconsistencies which could be interpreted as preferential treatment? I can see where you are coming from if that is what you mean.