HH88

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Everything posted by HH88

  1. A privilege to watch Grey Ways 1977 Easter Handicap triumph from the uncovered top floor of the old public stand which afforded a panoramic view over the Ellerslie course. One of the best finishes seen, right up there with the Bonecrusher / Waverley Star Cox Plate epic some years later. Grey Way is line bred to Martini Henry (NZ) (Melbourne Cup, VRC Derby and St Ledger) and his full sister Wood Nymph (NZ) Waybrooke also carries a line of Nordenfeldt (NZ) (AJC and VRC Derby's) himself a 3/4 brother to both Martini Henry and Wood Nymph.
  2. With a few of his sons now standing Downunder an analysis of what lines appear to be working in his best performing progeny may be helpful when selecting suitable mares for them. To capture how his line breeding is building up in the background and how this is advanced with each succeeding generation his great grandsire Hail to Reason is a good start point. His balanced duplication of Maid of the Mist through Craig an Eran and St. Germans provide some insight as does his double male strain of Plucky Liege (through Admiral Drake and Sir Gallahad) who's third dam Frivolity is a full sister to Windermere the dam of Muncaster. There is also line breeding to English Triple Crown winner Ormonde (unbeaten on the turf in 16 starts) his full sister Ornament, and their full brother in blood Martagon. Of note every horse named above descends directly from the same maternal family. Another two to watch (although not yet in play) as we come forward one generation to Halo are North Star's male strain of Agneta, Solario's female strain of Muncaster, and Blenheim's male strain of Desmond, again all from exactly the same maternal family as those above. The effectiveness of Agneta and Desmond are possibly enhanced by St. German's line of Torpoint who carries Tibthorpe, the full brother to Desmond's fourth dam Fair Agnes. Also Tibthorpe's dam Little Agnes is the third dam of Agneta and a full sister to Polly Agnes the second dam of Martagon, Ormonde and Ornament. Halo has balanced line breeding to Blue Larkspur (with Agneta in behind) Blenheim and Gainsborough. Of particular note Cosmic Bomb's fifth dam Word of Honour is by Saraband, thus providing the male strain of Muncaster to balance the female strain through Solario. Sunday Silence's dam has a male strain of Bull Dog to balance Halo's female strain of Sir Gallahad and a female strain of Agneta to balance North Star's male strain. This could appear somewhat insignificant but as Deep Impact's pedigree shows, definitely not the case. Deep Impact has balanced line breeding to Mahmoud (by Blenheim with his male strain of Desmond) which is now balanced with a female strain through Nearctic. Sunday Silence's triple of Agneta are bought forward and balanced through a son and daughter of Dorina. So how does the forgoing manifest itself in Deep Impact's progeny? Pedigrees of some of his best racetrack performers to follow.
  3. HH88

    Deep Impact - et al

    Apropos all of the above, a couple of interesting lots from the recent ready to run sale:
  4. HH88

    Deep Impact - et al

    Some additional detail on the somewhat uncommon linebreeding to Red Sunset in the Postponed and City on a Hill theoretical matings above, and why this may be effective. (The tabulated pedigree sheets posted earlier in the thread should help to follow the text) Firstly Sunday Silence has balanced line breeding to Agneta through North Star and Fox Cub. Deep Impact brings that forward with his balanced linebreeding to Dorina through Fox Cub and Crepello. (Agneta is the fifth dam of Dorina) Staphanos already has linebreeding to Dulce and her full brother Astrophel, both out of Dorina. The Postponed and City on a Hill matings bring this forward again through an opposite strain of Red Sunset - which may be helpful for fillies bred to race. It also begs the question wether broodmares carrying (but not only) a daughter of Crepello or a son of Busted in their pedigree may be considered? A useful demonstration of how linebreeding is building up almost unnoticed in the background and brought forward, as always through an opposite strain. The tail female line of Crepello's pedigree (attached) may help illustrate the sequencing described above.
  5. HH88

    Deep Impact - et al

    A few more options for consideration.
  6. HH88

    Deep Impact - et al

    The term “strain” simply describes how an ancestor descends in a pedigree.If you go to the pedigree sheet immediately above (the Staphanos/Black Minnaloushe) and take as a for instance Eight Thirty highlighted in Blue. You will see he is descending via a daughter in the top half of the pedigree, thus a female strain, and via a son (Bolero) in the bottom half, thus a male strain. Exactly the same principle applies for Craig an Eran, Bull Lea, Tredennis, and Artists Proof as highlighted. The answer to your second question is no. It is an order of magnitude more difficult to start with a broodmare and endeavour to work out what stallion may suit her, there is simply not enough data to work with (unless it is a recognised cross such as Deep Impact with Storm Cat mares where nature has done the hard work) Starting with a stallion, analyzing say his top ten racetrack performers, determining the “constant factors” in their pedigrees then sourcing a broodmare to suit is likely to be more rewarding. Essentially that is what this Deep Impact et-al post endeavours to do. It makes mating decisions somewhat easier when there is at least a little clarity around what lines we are looking for. Trust this helps, as always happy to answer any questions or queries.
  7. HH88

    Deep Impact - et al

    The above analysis again demonstrates the breeding principle that stallions have one or more ancestors they are strongest too, and when mated with mares that carry the opposite strain get the best outcomes. This is the sole principle this analysis is based on. It is evident Deep Impact has met with considerable success when mated with Storm Cat mares. They provide the opposite strains of Bull Lea, Craig an Eran and Tredennis found in Deep Impact's pedigree. By way of example the dam of Staphanos appears to be free of these lines, so given what nature has shown us utilising them seems a logical proposition. A couple of random examples are attached to demonstrate how this might work. The "constant factors" identified in the tabulated pedigrees above are somewhat compelling and identify other lines that can be line bred to (other than Storm Cat) thus increasing the population of suitable mares. Trust this is of assistance to those breeding to race to shift the odds of success a little more in their favour, at the same time potentially enhancing the stallions own statistics.
  8. HH88

    Deep Impact - et al

    Two of his Australasian based stallion sons attached. Real Steel and Satono Aladdin are both out of Storm Cat mares largely covered off above.
  9. HH88

    Deep Impact - et al

    Saturday's Toorak Hcp winner attached. Line breeding Deja vu?
  10. HH88

    Deep Impact - et al

    Given all bar one of the initial pedigrees posted were colts, herewith five of Deep Impact's good fillies for review. Note all have balanced line breeding to a son and daughter of a female ancestor or full brother/sister.
  11. HH88

    Deep Impact - et al

    Attached is an analysis of a representative cross section of his best track performers. It is noticeable the line/s being picked up in the dams are the opposite strains of those identified in the original post viz: Hail to Reason, St. Germans, Craig an Eran, (and full sister Sunny Jane) Bull Lea, North Star, Astrophel (and full sister Dulce) etc; etc. The analysis in the original post coupled with the attached pedigree's may assist with mating decisions.
  12. HH88

    Clive Harper

    Nicely put. Great to hear the Levin breeders group is still running.
  13. HH88

    Changing Pedigrees to reflect new data

    The interesting aspect of the Bend Or finding is that the likely effective line breeding in the very successful and prolific blend with Macaroni mares remains the same with either Rouge Rose or Clemence. Whilst Clemence introduces line breeding to Banter, the line breeding to Derby winner Election and his full sister in blood the unnamed dam of Derby winner Moses (Sister to Castanea) remains intact.
  14. The trend continues with Piemonte an impressive winner at Sandown yesterday. Line bred to a male and female strain of Persian Gulf.
  15. Early days but with a disproportionately high number of his winners to date with balanced line-breeding to Bahram it is interesting to note the clue Stars of Carrum provides by bringing that forward one generation with his line-breeding to a son, a daughter, and full sister to Persian Gulf.
  16. Mannnza can now be added to the list winning at Pakenham on Thursday. His dam has both daughters of Bahram and Persian Gulf.
  17. Interesting to note 7 of his 9 winners to date are from mares with female lines of Bahram i.e. Stars of Carrum Alessandro Mangione Moor Gait Lord Gladstone Continuation Spensierato In 5 of the 7 the female line of Bahram is through Summertime who's sire Precipitation is a half brother to Persian Gulf the male line of Fiorente.
  18. HH88

    Sir Tristram - et al

    To conclude - all of the above shows us how these breeding principles work, starting with a "deep dive" analysis of a stallion and his best progeny ( to ascertain his strongest line or lines) then mating him with a broodmare carrying the opposite strain. Unfortunately starting with a mare and trying to work out what stallion may best suit her is an order of magnitude more difficult and very long odds to succeed if you are breeding to race. A stallion may produce 100 foals each season, a mare only one so the stallion and his progeny provide a much larger data base for analysis. (If you are considering a new stallion start with his sire) Before signing off lets address a matter raised earlier in the thread regarding conformation and temperament which wasn't dealt with at the time as this thread is based solely on pedigree. Of course these attributes are important. However with regard to this thread: Conformation: Sir Tristram was no oil painting. Temperament: Early reports out of Australia suggested the Zabeels were difficult (but when they started winning they soon learned to love them) It matters not if you have the best conformed horse on the planet with a temperament you would trust to babysit your kids - it still won't make a racehorse unless the pedigree is structured correctly.
  19. As a follow up to the earlier post Street Cry-et al on this site a couple of linebreeding principles (repeated below) demonstrated how searching for constant factors in a stallions best progeny can provide clues as to what lines he is looking for in the mares he is mated with. (1) A stallion can be particularly strong to certain lines in his pedigree and responds to mares who carry that line in the opposite strain. (2) That ancestor may be well back in the pedigree but will be effective if duplicated in sufficient number. This analysis can also provide clues as to how a stallions son will throw when he in turn goes to stud. And so to Sir Tristram: Lets start with Sir Ivor - and a challenge to pedigree enthusiasts out there. There are two horses in Sir Ivors pedigree, which when repeated through an opposite strain in mares Sir Tristram was mated with resulted in racing ability. So a "starter for ten"- who are they? And a bonus point for explaining how they are linked. More to follow........
  20. HH88

    Sir Tristram - et al

    All of the examples in this thread allow us to understand why Eight Carat was so successful with her balanced line breeding to Man O War, Fairy Gold, and Sir Cosmo. (eg Octagonal) Note: all this this effective line breeding is coming through the sire Pieces of Eight. But what influence could the balanced line breeding to the full brother/sister Royal Charger and Tessa Gillian be having? Is it effective or merely incidental? It appears without the line of Pieces of Eight this female family did not meet with the same success when mated with Sir Tristram or Zabeel.
  21. HH88

    Sir Tristram - et al

    The Ebony Grosve and Captain Court pedigrees above suggest the line of Orby (on its own) has some beneficial influence here. The next two pedigrees show how this can be brought forward (as always through an opposite strain) This line breeding is now through Sir Cosmo - however how much he is contributing is impossible to quantify as Zonda also has the male line of Man O War and Cronus has the full brother/sister Foxlaw/Aloe both of which have proved so successful in the others. Hence the Ebony Grosve and Captain Court pedigrees provide some indication at least Sir Cosmo is playing a useful supporting role. Apropos nothing at all: Light Fantastic ( Zonda) and Democratic (Cronus) are full brother/sister.
  22. HH88

    Sir Tristram - et al

    Correction: The balanced duplication (referred to above) in both Ebony Grosve and Captain Court is to Orby, not Sir Cosmo.
  23. HH88

    Sir Tristram - et al

    A little bit about Eight Carat And how she was able to leave top gallopers from both Sir Tristram and Zabeel. As the above pedigrees demonstrate Sir Tristram picked up male lines of Man O War and/or Spearmint in the mares he was mated with. As Zabeel was a "Spearmint" his line of Man O War was still open to line breed back to. So Eight Carat gave both stallions the male line of Man O War plus an additional reinforcing female strain of Fairy Gold. But there is also a balanced duplication of Sir Cosmo, so is this "effective" or merely "incidental" line breeding? Casting the net a little wider provides us some clues.
  24. HH88

    Sir Tristram - et al

    A little more grist for the Sir Tristram mill: The post dated 3rd August earlier in this thread explains the link between Spearmint, Man O War, and the full brother/sister Foxlaw and Aloe. The classy fillies Noble Heights and Royal Heights demonstrate this perfectly. They both have the Foxlaw/Aloe linebreeding (which should suit colts or fillies) but additionally have balanced linebreeding to Man O Wars dam Fairy Gold, through Dame D'or - Fairy Golds full sister. (Royal Heights also has an additional female strain of Fairy Gold through Dante) Thus a male and female strain of a female ancestor which may best suit fillies.
  25. HH88

    Star Way - et al

    What is the point of all this? (3) In an earlier post the question was posed: Have breeding principles really changed over the centuries? An analysis of pedigree both past and present would suggest not. Why the current focus on Star Way? His pedigree (particularly the German lines) and how they expressed themselves at stud provide very important clues for understanding both Monsun and his progeny.