HH88

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  1. The trend continues with Piemonte an impressive winner at Sandown yesterday. Line bred to a male and female strain of Persian Gulf.
  2. Early days but with a disproportionately high number of his winners to date with balanced line-breeding to Bahram it is interesting to note the clue Stars of Carrum provides by bringing that forward one generation with his line-breeding to a son, a daughter, and full sister to Persian Gulf.
  3. Mannnza can now be added to the list winning at Pakenham on Thursday. His dam has both daughters of Bahram and Persian Gulf.
  4. Interesting to note 7 of his 9 winners to date are from mares with female lines of Bahram i.e. Stars of Carrum Alessandro Mangione Moor Gait Lord Gladstone Continuation Spensierato In 5 of the 7 the female line of Bahram is through Summertime who's sire Precipitation is a half brother to Persian Gulf the male line of Fiorente.
  5. HH88

    Sir Tristram - et al

    To conclude - all of the above shows us how these breeding principles work, starting with a "deep dive" analysis of a stallion and his best progeny ( to ascertain his strongest line or lines) then mating him with a broodmare carrying the opposite strain. Unfortunately starting with a mare and trying to work out what stallion may best suit her is an order of magnitude more difficult and very long odds to succeed if you are breeding to race. A stallion may produce 100 foals each season, a mare only one so the stallion and his progeny provide a much larger data base for analysis. (If you are considering a new stallion start with his sire) Before signing off lets address a matter raised earlier in the thread regarding conformation and temperament which wasn't dealt with at the time as this thread is based solely on pedigree. Of course these attributes are important. However with regard to this thread: Conformation: Sir Tristram was no oil painting. Temperament: Early reports out of Australia suggested the Zabeels were difficult (but when they started winning they soon learned to love them) It matters not if you have the best conformed horse on the planet with a temperament you would trust to babysit your kids - it still won't make a racehorse unless the pedigree is structured correctly.
  6. HH88

    Sir Tristram - et al

    All of the examples in this thread allow us to understand why Eight Carat was so successful with her balanced line breeding to Man O War, Fairy Gold, and Sir Cosmo. (eg Octagonal) Note: all this this effective line breeding is coming through the sire Pieces of Eight. But what influence could the balanced line breeding to the full brother/sister Royal Charger and Tessa Gillian be having? Is it effective or merely incidental? It appears without the line of Pieces of Eight this female family did not meet with the same success when mated with Sir Tristram or Zabeel.
  7. HH88

    Sir Tristram - et al

    The Ebony Grosve and Captain Court pedigrees above suggest the line of Orby (on its own) has some beneficial influence here. The next two pedigrees show how this can be brought forward (as always through an opposite strain) This line breeding is now through Sir Cosmo - however how much he is contributing is impossible to quantify as Zonda also has the male line of Man O War and Cronus has the full brother/sister Foxlaw/Aloe both of which have proved so successful in the others. Hence the Ebony Grosve and Captain Court pedigrees provide some indication at least Sir Cosmo is playing a useful supporting role. Apropos nothing at all: Light Fantastic ( Zonda) and Democratic (Cronus) are full brother/sister.
  8. HH88

    Sir Tristram - et al

    Correction: The balanced duplication (referred to above) in both Ebony Grosve and Captain Court is to Orby, not Sir Cosmo.
  9. HH88

    Sir Tristram - et al

    A little bit about Eight Carat And how she was able to leave top gallopers from both Sir Tristram and Zabeel. As the above pedigrees demonstrate Sir Tristram picked up male lines of Man O War and/or Spearmint in the mares he was mated with. As Zabeel was a "Spearmint" his line of Man O War was still open to line breed back to. So Eight Carat gave both stallions the male line of Man O War plus an additional reinforcing female strain of Fairy Gold. But there is also a balanced duplication of Sir Cosmo, so is this "effective" or merely "incidental" line breeding? Casting the net a little wider provides us some clues.
  10. HH88

    Sir Tristram - et al

    A little more grist for the Sir Tristram mill: The post dated 3rd August earlier in this thread explains the link between Spearmint, Man O War, and the full brother/sister Foxlaw and Aloe. The classy fillies Noble Heights and Royal Heights demonstrate this perfectly. They both have the Foxlaw/Aloe linebreeding (which should suit colts or fillies) but additionally have balanced linebreeding to Man O Wars dam Fairy Gold, through Dame D'or - Fairy Golds full sister. (Royal Heights also has an additional female strain of Fairy Gold through Dante) Thus a male and female strain of a female ancestor which may best suit fillies.
  11. HH88

    Star Way - et al

    What is the point of all this? (3) In an earlier post the question was posed: Have breeding principles really changed over the centuries? An analysis of pedigree both past and present would suggest not. Why the current focus on Star Way? His pedigree (particularly the German lines) and how they expressed themselves at stud provide very important clues for understanding both Monsun and his progeny.
  12. HH88

    Star Way - et al

    What is the point of all this (2) Sky Chase is typical of the good Star Ways with his linebreeding to Sans Souci and Santa Maura. Saintly is one of his best. Saintlys dam adds a line of Siphonia and Buckwheat - but Sky Chase has already effectively "used up" those lines. (Nothing is added through an opposite strain) Nimues pedigree provides the clue - she is line bred through Donatello to Violet. (Her two female strains of Donatello rely on Mid-day-Suns female strain of Santa Brigida to make it work) Saintly however is correctly line bred to Donatello through male and female strains. What does Donatello have to do with Sans Souci? Essentially Sans Souci, Ayrshire, and Melton all have line breeding to St. Ledger winner Newminster and his full sister, 1000 Guineas place getter Honeysuckle. Donatello shows us how these duplications multiplying in the background can be carried forward - and as always through an opposite strain. (Notably Beeswing started 63 times for 51 wins and 9 placings)
  13. HH88

    Star Way - et al

    What is the point of all this? As described earlier in the thread when a stallions strongest lines are understood (in this case St. Florian and Sans Souci) mares he is mated with carrying the opposite strain appear to do best. Herewith two examples that demonstrate this in practice. In Starjos pedigree (above) his line of Sans Souci comes through Vieux Manoir. Pakaraka Star one of Starjos best is correctly line bred to Vieux Manoir thus carrying forward the Sans Souci in the background through an opposite strain. In Sky Chases pedigree (above) his line of Santa Maura comes through Illustrious. Phenomenal View a talented but unsound (if memory serves) galloper is correctly line bred to her full brother Davey Jones thus carrying forward the Santa Maura in the background through an opposite strain. Both examples of breeding principles at work, how the strongest lines in a stallion can be carried forward in succeeding generations and provide useful pointers in selecting suitable broodmares. The duplications, in this case Vieux Manoir and Davey Jones make little sense on their own. Understanding what lies behind them is the key.
  14. HH88

    Star Way - et al

    To be involved in this business we must all be dummies. A very plausible argument can be made for Selene given Star Appeals male line descends from Bosworth a son of Serenissima, and Rockefellas line of Hyperion provides the female strain through Selene. The argument can be further advanced given Neckars third dam is by Grand Parade whos second dam Grand Marnier is a full sister to the dam of Minoru - the sire of Serenissima. The circle is then completed with Star Ways damline providing a female strain of Selene. The burning question then becomes how does this line breeding manifest itself through an opposite strain in the dams Star Way is mated with that go on to perform on the track. The logic is impeccable but the constant factors (Sans Souci / St Florian) in the relatively large sample size suggests these influences dominate. However he who pays the service fee decides! Trust this helps.
  15. HH88

    Star Way - et al

    Nimue (and full relatives Smiling Like, Eurostar, etc) provide further clues as to the recurring presence of Sans Souci in some of Star Ways best performers. Star Board and Filante point to the influence of Sans Soucis damsire St. Serf and Nimue certainly adds weight to the argument. She is correctly line bred through Donatello with his male lines of Santa Brigida, and the crucial female strain coming through Mid-day Suns dam line. However what sits in behind gives us additional insight: Santa Brigidas dam Bridget is a full sister to Melton. Bridgets second dam Violet is a full sister to Feronia. For the sake of clarity and lack of space not all of these duplications are shown on Nimues pedigree page however the structure of the line breeding is evident. Star Way himself has 26 female strains of Violet and Feronia - but the only male strain comes through St. Serf.