NZ Cup Week Pow Wow?

[JJ Flash 2,135]

[Iraklis 2,231]

JJ mate, what the hell is goin on? have HRNZ got a virus?

 

Cheers Iraklis

[Mikie 326]

2 hours ago, Iraklis said:

JJ mate, what the hell is goin on? have HRNZ got a virus?

 

Cheers Iraklis

Ridiculous

Perhaps the Irish can give the All Blacks a 12 point start in the RWC 1/4 Final?

[2Piper 408]

The best horses should be the winner of these top races , not the best handicapped horse. Could be detrimental to NZ born stallions for their breeding future. 

 

[Iraklis 2,231]

Here you go guys check this out:  https://www.lincolnfarms.co.nz/stories/nz-met-chiefs-urge-hrnz-to-put-a-hold-on-handicap-decree-for-prestige-races/   

 

Cheers Iraklis

[JJ Flash 2,135]

2 hours ago, Iraklis said:

Here you go guys check this out:  https://www.lincolnfarms.co.nz/stories/nz-met-chiefs-urge-hrnz-to-put-a-hold-on-handicap-decree-for-prestige-races/   

 

Cheers Iraklis

So here's what concerns me immediately. Its complete madness telling successful clubs how to run their businesses given how hopeless HRNZ is. You wonder whose idea it is- surely not GW's

Williams believes with handicapping in our prestige Group I races we’d risk chasing our best horses to Australia, where they can race from mobiles.

and

 

Under a new rule brought in at last year’s annual conference, HRNZ has the ultimate power, including whether to approve a club’s programme or not.

Williams is hoping common sense prevails and HRNZ doesn’t try to weild a big stick and insist on a change this November.

 

 

[lamour 673]

1 hour ago, JJ Flash said:

Williams believes with handicapping in our prestige Group I races we’d risk chasing our best horses to Australia

The other way to look at it is some of our better horses  that would have been sold because they were making up numbers might stay here now they  have a sniff of earning money in the top races 

[eljay 1,720]

HRNZ have learned from the politicians.     The answer could be the same - outski next elections!!      

[JJ Flash 2,135]

5 minutes ago, lamour said:

The other way to look at it is some of our better horses  that would have been sold because they were making up numbers might stay here now they  have a sniff of earning money in the top races 

Possibly, and only time will tell what topliners will do. 

Note HRNZ seem to think it will provide bigger pools for punter as in a more attractive punting competition. I'm not sure about that as where's the research/analysis to say that's true. Most on course on Cup day probably would not notice the difference but that's another  matter.

 

[Thejanitor 1,220]

39 minutes ago, JJ Flash said:

Possibly, and only time will tell what topliners will do. 

Note HRNZ seem to think it will provide bigger pools for punter as in a more attractive punting competition. I'm not sure about that as where's the research/analysis to say that's true. Most on course on Cup day probably would not notice the difference but that's another  matter.

 

hasn't both oncourse and off course betting increased for NZ Trotting Cup Day? Probably on-course would have taken a hit with restricted crowds but prior to covid I believe concourse increased each year. 

Butt out HRNZ. Telling probably New Zealand's best run club, NZ Metropolitan Trotting Club, how to run meeting is not on. I believe this move will hasten the demise of harness in NZ with more horses heading to race in Australia and who can blame them.

[Akcam 24]

HRNZ should make all the major Group races handicaps.

It is long overdue, and maybe punters would have a chance to have a bet on a horse without an odds on  favourite in the field

(hard to back it, and hard to back against it).

Worse still, some hot pots even get a flying start from the starter!

In gallops, the best horses carry more weight, but in trotting the best horses in the biggest race start off the front, sometimes year after year.

Sundees Sun is a good example in the Dominion Handicap.

[Thejanitor 1,220]

2 hours ago, Akcam said:

HRNZ should make all the major Group races handicaps.

It is long overdue, and maybe punters would have a chance to have a bet on a horse without an odds on  favourite in the field

(hard to back it, and hard to back against it).

Worse still, some hot pots even get a flying start from the starter!

In gallops, the best horses carry more weight, but in trotting the best horses in the biggest race start off the front, sometimes year after year.

Sundees Sun is a good example in the Dominion Handicap.

You can get good odds on Group races now if you are astute. Examples Laver in the Jewels I got $18 first three, Sweet Belle 7.50 first three; Amazing Dream $26 & $23 at 2021 albion Park festival. 

You have a point and handicaps might increase betting but you can still make money now if you pay attention.

[Idolmite 2,544]

So they used to be handicaps if memory serves me correctly? And most of us seem to say racing as much better "back in the day", so 1 + ! = 3?

[We're Doomed 4,855]

19 hours ago, 2Piper said:

The best horses should be the winner of these top races , not the best handicapped horse. Could be detrimental to NZ born stallions for their breeding future. 

 

Those races all used to be handicaps and some pretty good horses used to win them. I hardly ever bet on the trots any more, largely because it is a bit pointless with $1.20 favs in the big races.

[Nelli 432]

Looked back to when the 2 big races at Addington did have handicaps  and it seems to me the cream still came to the top. However, just before the races became FFA, the max back mark was 10m which maybe was a suitable compromise. IMO the top G1 races should be FFA.   But to enable horses just below the champs to have a decent share of the cake to reflect their class and to encourage owners to keep them racing in NZ, lesser races, in particular everyday races, should have hcps that even out the field.

[MAJESTIC 182]

Where did HRNZ get that Catherine McDonald from? What is or was here background in our industry? Never heard of her prior to appointment as HRNZ general manager of racing, marketing and communications. For her to say "that she believed handicapping the best horses might strengthen the competition and boost dividends". What a load of crap. The good ones won't line up, Copy That, Majestic Cruiser and Self Assured amongst them. It would then become a provincial cup

[Mikie 326]

21 hours ago, 2Piper said:

The best horses should be the winner of these top races , not the best handicapped horse. Could be detrimental to NZ born stallions for their breeding future. 

 

100% right 2Piper

 

9 hours ago, lamour said:

The other way to look at it is some of our better horses  that would have been sold because they were making up numbers might stay here now they  have a sniff of earning money in the top races 

So your attitude is to penalise the good horses in order to reward the poorer ones? 

 

1 hour ago, We're Doomed said:

Those races all used to be handicaps and some pretty good horses used to win them. I hardly ever bet on the trots any more, largely because it is a bit pointless with $1.20 favs in the big races.

Name a $1.20 shot that has won the New Zealand Cup We're Doomed? the shortest I can find are Self Assured in 2021 and Lazurus in 2017, both at $1.40

A quick count up of the winning dividends over the last 5 years in the NZ Cup, Auckland Cup, Rowe Cup and Dominion shows an average winning dividend of over $11.00

I have ignored the Invercargill Cup that Catherine McDonald wants to change to a Handicap event as it's already a Handicap event (which shos how much research went into this decision making)

50 minutes ago, MAJESTIC said:

Where did HRNZ get that Catherine McDonald from? What is or was here background in our industry? Never heard of her prior to appointment as HRNZ general manager of racing, marketing and communications. For her to say "that she believed handicapping the best horses might strengthen the competition and boost dividends". What a load of crap. The good ones won't line up, Copy That, Majestic Cruiser and Self Assured amongst them. It would then become a provincial cup

Prophetic words Majestic with Self Assured, Copy That and Majestic Cruiser all going to bypass the NZ Cup if it's made a Handicap according to reports

What a brilliant marketing strategy

I think that the anticipated increased turnover is pie in the sky stuff as well

It's a bit like the old days when Addington raced solus on a Friday night and did $1.2 million T/O

Some bright spark decided to put ATC and NZMTC on the same night (Friday). What happened? They shared the T/O, it didn't go up (or if it did in total some weeks ever so slightly the % return on any minor increase certainly wouldn't pay an extra 10 race stakes)

NZ Cup betting has a saturation point, and it's probably been reached with the attention that Cup Week gets in the months leading up to it

I would even have a $ on T/O going down due to a reduction in multi's

Horses are only $1.40 due to the weight of money on them aren't they? 

[Idolmite 2,544]

So the argument is the top horses won't line up, but back when the NZ Trotting Cup WAS a handicap, did a top runner EVER not line up because it was a handicap? Well? Did they? If there's enough money up, they'll still be there at 10m behind. Guaranteed.

And the argument that the best horses should be winning. If they're really the best, they still will be winning. Although if the defending Cup champ, the Auckland Cup winner and and defending Interdom champion competing were all back 10m, they can't all win. It's good to see the best horses winning, but should they just be handed victory on a silver platter? The overall quality of our fields are pathetic, and not betting propositions at all. $1.40 Cup winners should NEVER happen. And somebody quotes $11 average dividends, but utilises more trotting races than pacing to get that figure. One can do anything with numbers to push any agenda one wants to push, and I bet if that $11 had worked out at $3, even using the trotting races that throw up more outsiders on average, it would never have been mentioned. 

I'm not saying handicaps are definitely the answer, but we need to do something. Our top flight racing has become far too predictable to be a betting proposition for the average and casual punter. Yes, there is still the occasional upset, but most races roll across the finish line exactly as predicted in the lead up. Boring as.  

[JJ Flash 2,135]

On 7/26/2022 at 10:23 PM, 2Piper said:

The best horses should be the winner of these top races , not the best handicapped horse. Could be detrimental to NZ born stallions for their breeding future. 

 

Thats the way i see it as well

You wont see any handicaps for sprinters or stayers in Olympics. So why change a winning system at NZMTC or its poor Auckland relative.

[JJ Flash 2,135]

12 hours ago, Mikie said:

I have ignored the Invercargill Cup that Catherine McDonald wants to change to a Handicap event as it's already a Handicap event (which shos how much research went into this decision making)

Priceless

[Idolmite 2,544]

1 hour ago, JJ Flash said:

Thats the way i see it as well

You wont see any handicaps for sprinters or stayers in Olympics. So why change a winning system at NZMTC or its poor Auckland relative.

I find the current system quite boring most years, especially with some of the botched standing starts (very few handicaps given out, only bonus semi-mobile starts for hot favorites) but maybe I'm just getting old............or maybe we just haven't got enough competitive horses/stables these days.........

[Mikie 326]

11 hours ago, Idolmite said:

So the argument is the top horses won't line up, but back when the NZ Trotting Cup WAS a handicap, did a top runner EVER not line up because it was a handicap? Well? Did they? If there's enough money up, they'll still be there at 10m behind. Guaranteed.

 

Did they have the option of jumping on a plane and racing in Aussie off level marks in 1940 Idolmiite?

 

And somebody quotes $11 average dividends, but utilises more trotting races than pacing to get that figure. One can do anything with numbers to push any agenda one wants to push, and I bet if that $11 had worked out at $3, even using the trotting races that throw up more outsiders on average, it would never have been mentioned. 

I used the trotting races average dividends because they are included in the races Catherine McDonald dreamed should be Handicaps

If you just want the average pacing Cups dividend over the last 5 years it's about $4.30

[Idolmite 2,544]

1 hour ago, Mikie said:

Did they have the option of jumping on a plane and racing in Aussie off level marks in 1940 Idolmiite?

 

And somebody quotes $11 average dividends, but utilises more trotting races than pacing to get that figure. One can do anything with numbers to push any agenda one wants to push, and I bet if that $11 had worked out at $3, even using the trotting races that throw up more outsiders on average, it would never have been mentioned. 

I used the trotting races average dividends because they are included in the races Catherine McDonald dreamed should be Handicaps

If you just want the average pacing Cups dividend over the last 5 years it's about $4.30

Aeroplanes had been invented, as had the Miracle Mile albeit at a different venue to today, but I'm unsure as to the logistics of every flight, every meeting and every track.
 

What I do know, at least in my opinion, is that Cup Day is not the not-to-be-missed attraction it once was. I used to take a day off work and watch the entire card on television, beginning to end. Now I'm not even bothered if I miss the Cup, although I do record it to watch later if I happen to get a better offer and am out elsewhere enjoying the company of non-race fans. And there's a lot more of those these days than there are race fans. Even the huge Cup Day crowds they attract when Covid isn't limiting things, are mostly there for the grog and not the racing. The days of the stands being packed with actual races fans is a thing of the past, although only part of that is down to the reduced overall quality of the horseflesh on display. Young people have so many options these days, and following horse racing of any variety hasn't been high on there list of priorities for many a year.  

[Mikie 326]

1 hour ago, Idolmite said:

Aeroplanes had been invented, as had the Miracle Mile albeit at a different venue to today, but I'm unsure as to the logistics of every flight, every meeting and every track.
 

What I do know, at least in my opinion, is that Cup Day is not the not-to-be-missed attraction it once was. I used to take a day off work and watch the entire card on television, beginning to end. Now I'm not even bothered if I miss the Cup, although I do record it to watch later if I happen to get a better offer and am out elsewhere enjoying the company of non-race fans. And there's a lot more of those these days than there are race fans. Even the huge Cup Day crowds they attract when Covid isn't limiting things, are mostly there for the grog and not the racing. The days of the stands being packed with actual races fans is a thing of the past, although only part of that is down to the reduced overall quality of the horseflesh on display. Young people have so many options these days, and following horse racing of any variety hasn't been high on there list of priorities for many a year.  

Aeroplanes may have been invented but I'm sure that the options of missing the Cup and jumping on a plane to Aussie wasn't as straightforward as it is in 2022

Your 2nd paragraph doesn't appear to be anything to do with the Cup being a Handicap and I agree with it. I doubt most of the crowd on Cup Day now even attend another harness raceday all year

[Mikie 326]

4 hours ago, JJ Flash said:

Thats the way i see it as well

You wont see any handicaps for sprinters or stayers in Olympics. So why change a winning system at NZMTC or its poor Auckland relative.

Just another couple of points

(1) The proposal, if that's what it now is, isn't for a true Handicap but instead a hotch potch of a 10m handicap for certain Group wins

The Miracle Mile and NZ FFA aren't one of the races that will attract a penalty

I'm sure it's just an unfortunate coincidence which 2 horses that benefits

(2) Perhaps Catherine McDonald can release her analysis of Turnovers that support her hypothesis so that we are all better informed?

Surely an analysis was done? Surely? Really? Are you sure? Surely she must have?