The myth that is the R60 races

[scooby3051 10,876]

12 minutes ago, tripple alliance said:

If R60 is introduced it will only be a short term solution , the masses will soon fall to that level and the complaining will recommence , what then? R55 . 

So what if it gets to rating 40 as long as horses are kept in the system and full fields make for good betting turnover...why should owners have to keep paying if there is no suitable races...not all are progressive and can make it to open company.

[tripple alliance 1,026]

On 7/25/2022 at 3:22 PM, Roger Sugrue said:

the question that needs to be asked Shane is why wasn't this introduced 20 years ago when the pool of horses going round ( in most training Centres) was double what we have now

In that subsequent time hundreds of fit and able horses ( esp in the Rating 65 Grade)  were consigned to the scrap heap because of their languishing rating....as their patient / dedicated owners finally through frustration of not getting a start ......retired their pride and joy

and if it wasn't introduced then....it most certainly should have when the Benchmark system was introduced ( about 15 years ago)

what's changed.............( the pool is diminishing, and one or two administrators have finally woken up to it)

In that subsequent time hundreds of fit and able horses ( esp in the Rating 65 Grade)  were consigned to the scrap heap because of their languishing rating....as their patient / dedicated owners finally through frustration of not getting a start ......retired their pride and joy

Rodger please get real , the horses you talk about were lowly rated for a reason , LACK OF PERFORMANCE  and the scrap heap was their Destinay , if a horse constantly under performs try a few other options , change track conditions , change training track, change trainers training regime,  , change feed , change the farrier , change the trainer , if that all fails change the horse but won't help is changing the ratings by 5 points .

[tripple alliance 1,026]

2 minutes ago, scooby3051 said:

So what if it gets to rating 40 as long as horses are kept in the system and full fields make for good betting turnover...why should owners have to keep paying if there is no suitable races...not all are progressive and can make it to open company.

R40 won't help the slow ones , it's just a number .

[scooby3051 10,876]

5 hours ago, tripple alliance said:

R40 won't help the slow ones , it's just a number .

But it will prolong their racing lives and keep owners interested and maybe just maybe go into another one...short sighted people like you is what's wrong with the industry.

 

[tripple alliance 1,026]

8 hours ago, scooby3051 said:

But it will prolong their racing lives and keep owners interested

 No, dropping the  rating band can only be short term relief and will do very little to keep owners interested all it will do is prolong the pain of owners and more likely  sour them against racing another one . If there is a problem and I'm not sure there is perhaps it's time to think about cancelling the drop back policy and let the handicapper create a wider band , lower minimum weight and a higher top weight, a return to 40 years ago .

[scooby3051 10,876]

I think you are not talking from a point of knowledge... I am I have seen horses careers prolonged and win 6 to 10 races in the same grade, with very happy owners...so it can and does work...sadly years ago does not work anymore...times have changed and we need to realise that ..cheers.

[We're Doomed 4,855]

1 hour ago, tripple alliance said:

. If there is a problem and I'm not sure there is ...

Gee, if you don't think there's a problem I do admire Scooby for debating the point with you.

[scooby3051 10,876]

1 minute ago, We're Doomed said:

Gee, if you don't think there's a problem I do admire Scooby for debating the point with you.

I wonder how many horses he owns or has owned....

[Roger Sugrue 190]

thanks for your reply Triple A......I enjoy your posts.......keep posting.........and I've deduced that your name certainly is not Bryce Stanaway

I'm surprised you're indifferent to Slow Horses because when I look across the Tasman I see a Thoroughbred Mega Industry sustained by slow horses

and what I mean by that is that if you're not good enough for Randwick you go to Gosford / Wyong....and if you're too slow there then it's off to Scone / Muswellbrook and if you're too slow there then its Tamworth......then Townsville / Rockhampton and so on .......there are races for every level from the very fastest to the very slowest....the art is working out where each horse fits in

and Mr V'Landys just loves it......full fields of horses  of even ability everywhere........the Punters globally love the full fields ....bet on them accordingly and they are now up to 82 races on the Aussie Calendar of plus a million dollars

I watched a most interesting piece a couple of months ago ( Racing.Com I think it was ) on ex Auckland Trotting man Don Dwyer ( Dillon Dean, Dillon Dale from memory ) who focuses entirely on the Picnic Circuit running his Owner Trained horses for races of stakes of $5,000 - and he makes a very successful business income out of it.......plenty of Redoutes' and Vinnies' on that Circuit too

I thought the Business model  for our Industry is full fields / maximum races on a Raceday / to drive both Domestic and International betting

and sometimes to get full fields you need Creative Programming.......something we have severely lacked in NZ

[Roger Sugrue 190]

which leads me onto the Rating 60's to be introduced next week and IMO should have happened ages ago

10 - 12 years ago in the CD we had 11 races on a Saturday and 8 on a Thursday...........now we've gone down the slippery slope to 8 on a Saturday and 7 on Thursday or vice versa

and all of a sudden these Rating 60's are introduced ( which will increase the number of races on a Raceday )

so my question is "'what is the light bulb  moment that has occurred for this to happen now ......   and not years ago when it was bleeding obvious our race numbers per day were in decline"

anyway Triple A we'll probably have to agree to disagree........but I have my Hard Hat on and I'm braced for your vociferous response......all the best 

[tripple alliance 1,026]

1 hour ago, scooby3051 said:

I wonder how many horses he owns or has owned....

Owned About 15/20 over many years , not all raced some found a new home when their lack of competitiveness  was obvious ,  raced 8/10 and mostly 100% owned (50/50 wife) , bred a few as well 

[We're Doomed 4,855]

1 hour ago, Roger Sugrue said:

thanks for your reply Triple A......I enjoy your posts.......keep posting.........and I've deduced that your name certainly is not Bryce Stanaway

I'm surprised you're indifferent to Slow Horses because when I look across the Tasman I see a Thoroughbred Mega Industry sustained by slow horses

and what I mean by that is that if you're not good enough for Randwick you go to Gosford / Wyong....and if you're too slow there then it's off to Scone / Muswellbrook and if you're too slow there then its Tamworth......then Townsville / Rockhampton and so on .......there are races for every level from the very fastest to the very slowest....the art is working out where each horse fits in

and Mr V'Landys just loves it......full fields of horses  of even ability everywhere........the Punters globally love the full fields ....bet on them accordingly and they are now up to 82 races on the Aussie Calendar of plus a million dollars

I watched a most interesting piece a couple of months ago ( Racing.Com I think it was ) on ex Auckland Trotting man Don Dwyer ( Dillon Dean, Dillon Dale from memory ) who focuses entirely on the Picnic Circuit running his Owner Trained horses for races of stakes of $5,000 - and he makes a very successful business income out of it.......plenty of Redoutes' and Vinnies' on that Circuit too

I thought the Business model  for our Industry is full fields / maximum races on a Raceday / to drive both Domestic and International betting

and sometimes to get full fields you need Creative Programming.......something we have severely lacked in NZ

That is very well said Roger, couldn't have put it better myself.

[Chris Wood 1,576]

Well said and put Roger.

The Roadshow that Bruce Sharrock ran was attended by a good crowd at the Cambridge track and the trainers were unanimous on their opinions on running R 60 races.

They have had one up this way, I think at Avondale and the nominations were huge, showing there is definetly a need for them.

Bring on the new season!

[Leggy 4,076]

5 hours ago, Roger Sugrue said:

thanks for your reply Triple A......I enjoy your posts.......keep posting.........and I've deduced that your name certainly is not Bryce Stanaway

I'm surprised you're indifferent to Slow Horses because when I look across the Tasman I see a Thoroughbred Mega Industry sustained by slow horses

and what I mean by that is that if you're not good enough for Randwick you go to Gosford / Wyong....and if you're too slow there then it's off to Scone / Muswellbrook and if you're too slow there then its Tamworth......then Townsville / Rockhampton and so on .......there are races for every level from the very fastest to the very slowest....the art is working out where each horse fits in

and Mr V'Landys just loves it......full fields of horses  of even ability everywhere........the Punters globally love the full fields ....bet on them accordingly and they are now up to 82 races on the Aussie Calendar of plus a million dollars

I watched a most interesting piece a couple of months ago ( Racing.Com I think it was ) on ex Auckland Trotting man Don Dwyer ( Dillon Dean, Dillon Dale from memory ) who focuses entirely on the Picnic Circuit running his Owner Trained horses for races of stakes of $5,000 - and he makes a very successful business income out of it.......plenty of Redoutes' and Vinnies' on that Circuit too

I thought the Business model  for our Industry is full fields / maximum races on a Raceday / to drive both Domestic and International betting

and sometimes to get full fields you need Creative Programming.......something we have severely lacked in NZ

Excellent post but you'll need a few very good brain surgeons to get that across to anyone who can do anything about it.

[tripple alliance 1,026]

On 7/27/2022 at 12:12 PM, Roger Sugrue said:

which leads me onto the Rating 60's to be introduced next week and IMO should have happened ages ago

10 - 12 years ago in the CD we had 11 races on a Saturday and 8 on a Thursday...........now we've gone down the slippery slope to 8 on a Saturday and 7 on Thursday or vice versa

and all of a sudden these Rating 60's are introduced ( which will increase the number of races on a Raceday )

so my question is "'what is the light bulb  moment that has occurred for this to happen now ......   and not years ago when it was bleeding obvious our race numbers per day were in decline"

anyway Triple A we'll probably have to agree to disagree........but I have my Hard Hat on and I'm braced for your vociferous response......all the best 

Here it is what a breakthrough racing's saved ,Cambridge tomorrow BUT oops 7 acceptances what happened to all that demand , a full field in the  R 65 and most in that could start in the R60 and claim and then we have all R 65 at Hawera and all nominated will get a start so wheres the problem . Now Rodger you reference Australia and sure if you can't compete at a higher level then you have options to travel and go into weaker company BUT the stakes reflect the drop in company so if we follow that thinking the R60 should be run for $7000 not the $14000 that"s on offer .

[Roger Sugrue 190]

now now Bob.......don't go picking on me......my posts are constructive 

I could answer that by referring to your earlier post - where they.ve immediately been "consigned to the Scrap Heap"........so..... it will therefore take a while

but if you have a look at the Rating 65's at Ruakaka on Saturday you will count 27 Rating 60 horses nominated in those 2 events alone

and Bob....something that will send you apoplectic........check out the Cambridge Stakes Uplift - Rating 60 on 17 August - $35,000.......I think it says it's a Group 1  .......maybe

even I smiled when I read that......but if that is a Club decision then  I heartily applaud them

[shaneMcAlister 1,425]

1 hour ago, tripple alliance said:

Here it is what a breakthrough racing's saved ,Cambridge tomorrow BUT oops 7 acceptances what happened to all that demand , a full field in the  R 65 and most in that could start in the R60 and claim and then we have all R 65 at Hawera and all nominated will get a start so wheres the problem . Now Rodger you reference Australia and sure if you can't compete at a higher level then you have options to travel and go into weaker company BUT the stakes reflect the drop in company so if we follow that thinking the R60 should be run for $7000 not the $14000 that"s on offer .

Agreed disappointing number, but lets wait to R60 on the turf. 

[tripple alliance 1,026]

GROUP ONE TURF BAR 1300M 

Rating 60 HCP 1300m - $35,000

Must have been drunk at the time when they dreamed that one up anyway the fact that they would wast so much money on low rated horses is beyond belief . The field will be made up of higher rated horses who then claim , 2 points per kg so R68 can reduce weight to 60kg and over a shortish distance these horses will dominate and your R60 won't get a look in . Ruakaka , just horses looking for better ground so I ignored that but even there most will get a start .

 

[Aaron Bidlake 760]

No, they are not benchmark so no horses above rt60 can enter. 

[Chris Wood 1,576]

I for one are happy, my horse has slipped down the rating, R 60 programmed, in like Flynn, and will be competitive to!

[Roger Sugrue 190]

 BUT the stakes reflect the drop in company so if we follow that thinking the R60 should be run for $7000 not the $14000 that"s on offer .

to be fair to you Bob .....it is a very fair question............but I'm not going to go down that rabbit hole

because once you address variable stakes ( which I don't disagree with ) then that leads you onto Tiered Racing and then leads you onto "appropriate Handicapping for Tiered Racing"

all things that the "Powers that Be"  never had the appetite to address in the last 20 years ( e.g. when the Benchmark System was introduced)

it gives me a headache even thinking about this subject now......and I'm too old to be worrying about it.......have a great day 

[Roger Sugrue 190]

and Congrats to Chris........I think we all had a nice little Collect -  thank you

[tripple alliance 1,026]

On 8/2/2022 at 8:45 PM, Chris Wood said:

I for one are happy, my horse has slipped down the rating, R 60 programmed, in like Flynn, and will be competitive to!

Congrats on the win sorry for the belated response but been travelling , let's see how he copes with the rise in company next time I see he won a $50k R65 at Ellerslie earlier in his career so he must have a reasonable amount of talent hopefully he performs again next time . 7 Points for the win seems plenty but that's how it is , good luck for next time .

[Chris Wood 1,576]

Not happy with the 7 points TA, normal 65 winners get 5 points, I thought 7 was a bit harsh, not having won a race for 18 months.
 

[Baz (NZ) 1,722]

14 hours ago, Chris Wood said:

Not happy with the 7 points TA, normal 65 winners get 5 points, I thought 7 was a bit harsh, not having won a race for 18 months.
 

Agree Chris...yet the winner of a R65 at Hawera yesterday only got 3 points and stays in the same grade ! Go Figure?