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shaneMcAlister

The myth that is the R60 races

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A few months ago we were told there was going to be R60 races introduced to cope with the high number of horses in this rating band.  I think this was a good idea, I wish NZ racing was not in a state that it required these races, however we have to accept where we are.  There are people in NZ racing that strongly opposed these races.  So since the introduction of R60 rating races I have only seen one of them,,,,happy to be corrected.

So what's the point of saying we are having these races if we are not going to programme them?!?!

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30 minutes ago, shaneMcAlister said:

A few months ago we were told there was going to be R60 races introduced to cope with the high number of horses in this rating band.  I think this was a good idea, I wish NZ racing was not in a state that it required these races, however we have to accept where we are.  There are people in NZ racing that strongly opposed these races.  So since the introduction of R60 rating races I have only seen one of them,,,,happy to be corrected.

So what's the point of saying we are having these races if we are not going to programme them?!?!

Could you explain why there are "people in NZ racing that strongly opposed these races." They sound like a good idea to me.

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21 minutes ago, We're Doomed said:

Could you explain why there are "people in NZ racing that strongly opposed these races." They sound like a good idea to me.

People thought we were catering for.the low end and this just promotes more mediocrity. So I think it is strange that we are not seeing these races. 

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They start in the new season, midweek only. They did just put one on somewhere a few weeks back when quite a backlog of horses. 

Interestingly  I haven't heard anyone who thinks they're a bad idea down here, I certainly like the idea, damn hard if you have one down the rating and just need to get a race in to them and unable to get a start. 

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How about a modified Highway Handicap system? In the north for horses not trained at Matamata or Cambridge. In the CD for horses not trained at Awapuni. In the South for horses not trained at Riccarton. Time to look outside the square when it comes to programming.

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13 minutes ago, gubellini said:

How about a modified Highway Handicap system? In the north for horses not trained at Matamata or Cambridge. In the CD for horses not trained at Awapuni. In the South for horses not trained at Riccarton. Time to look outside the square when it comes to programming.

All good points. So many possibilities. But when is the last time you saw such innovation in NZ Racing?

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R 60 horses sound like they are not progressive They won a maiden got awarded a rating of say 61 or 62 then they cant crack R65 so they fall back.

I suppose R60 is a good idea if R65 noms get too big. TR would be looking at field sizes no doubt.

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They need to cater for the mediocre horses that is what keeps people in racing hells bells should one ever be able to pay its way by winning a race here or there...the trouble is now as it stands once you win a race you are in a place where unless you are progressive you really struggle and then owners lose faith and get rid of them or drop out. What is wrong with lowly rated horses running around together to make a race competitive...but once again lets stay with the norm and see what happens...trouble is you keep doing the same you always get the same results.

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Just now, Nerula said:

R 60 horses sound like they are not progressive They won a maiden got awarded a rating of say 61 or 62 then they cant crack R65 so they fall back.

I suppose R60 is a good idea if R65 noms get too big. TR would be looking at field sizes no doubt.

So what not every horse is progressive but in its grade it can still pay its way.

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10 minutes ago, scooby3051 said:

They need to cater for the mediocre horses that is what keeps people in racing hells bells should one ever be able to pay its way by winning a race here or there...the trouble is now as it stands once you win a race you are in a place where unless you are progressive you really struggle and then owners lose faith and get rid of them or drop out. What is wrong with lowly rated horses running around together to make a race competitive...but once again lets stay with the norm and see what happens...trouble is you keep doing the same you always get the same results.

Yes and if our experience is anything to go by, you can always fill cards with slow horses.

Class 5 and Class 6 handicaps routinely fill and are sometimes divided whether on the grass or artificial surfaces. Some tracks have recognised the need to give these races a boost - Chelmsford will be putting £10k into all their lower grade races. The problem is you have six running for £700k in the King George but tomorrow evening's closing race at Windsor, a Class 6 handicap, with 9 runners, goes for £3,726.

At Ayr, joint biggest field is the Class 6 over 1000m - first prize £3,456.  

It's the same problem - you need to make winning lower grade races viable - I suppose it would be nice if winning a couple of races paid for your training fees  but that would require the prize money we see in Hong Kong or the USA I imagine.

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1 hour ago, gubellini said:

How about a modified Highway Handicap system? In the north for horses not trained at Matamata or Cambridge. In the CD for horses not trained at Awapuni. In the South for horses not trained at Riccarton. Time to look outside the square when it comes to programming.

Sunline, Greyway, Axeman, Showgate, La Mer, Rough Habit etc etc... Were not trained at these tracks you suggested!

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42 minutes ago, TurnipOrange said:

Sunline, Greyway, Axeman, Showgate, La Mer, Rough Habit etc etc... Were not trained at these tracks you suggested!

Yes very true. The Sydney Highway class wouldn't work so well in NZ. We just need to find something that does work in our situation.

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1 hour ago, scooby3051 said:

So what not every horse is progressive but in its grade it can still pay its way.

Classic example in the Oamaru Cup yesterday. The winner had already won over $900,000, the top weight had won over $1.1m. Many people argue they had done their dash and had nothing to prove so they should be retired. My view is they made a massive contribution to yesterday's meeting so good on their connections for placing them where they can still be competitive. If SI racing was better structured there would be a lot more horses that might end up there where they can still be competitive, and in some cases get their confidence back.

Sadly, the people in charge of such things have absolutely no idea how "tiered racing" really works.

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Look I'm all for "tiered racing" but it comes down to how the noms lay. if you had say 24 noms for a R65 I suspect the majority would fall 60 or under. That might leave an R65 a bit skinny. But then you could Nominate for both I wonder. Would that be the way to go?

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the question that needs to be asked Shane is why wasn't this introduced 20 years ago when the pool of horses going round ( in most training Centres) was double what we have now

In that subsequent time hundreds of fit and able horses ( esp in the Rating 65 Grade)  were consigned to the scrap heap because of their languishing rating....as their patient / dedicated owners finally through frustration of not getting a start ......retired their pride and joy

and if it wasn't introduced then....it most certainly should have when the Benchmark system was introduced ( about 15 years ago)

what's changed.............( the pool is diminishing, and one or two administrators have finally woken up to it)

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25 minutes ago, Roger Sugrue said:

the question that needs to be asked Shane is why wasn't this introduced 20 years ago when the pool of horses going round ( in most training Centres) was double what we have now

In that subsequent time hundreds of fit and able horses ( esp in the Rating 65 Grade)  were consigned to the scrap heap because of their languishing rating....as their patient / dedicated owners finally through frustration of not getting a start ......retired their pride and joy

and if it wasn't introduced then....it most certainly should have when the Benchmark system was introduced ( about 15 years ago)

what's changed.............( the pool is diminishing, and one or two administrators have finally woken up to it)

Hi Roger

I suppose in hindsight (20:20) it could have been.  However we use to have higher rated horses in NZ.  We use to have R85 races a 7 years ago.  Then all the horses at that rating dried up.  Our rating 74 fileds are drying up too now fast.  Infact we only have about 10 horses in the country rated over 100.

 

 

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Have a look at the MAAT races at Cambridge Wednesday and the ratings per race is all over the place. I dont understand why MAAT is such a good idea. Surely tiered racing gives more even ratings and daresay better punting.

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Yes Shane....on your other thread.... the 10 horses above 100 ( I excluded Mascarpone)  will probably have diminished by this time next year ( maybe substantially)  - their average age  is 7 years old

Then you look at the Ratings Search Engine the 86 - 99 band......who will join the 100 Club this coming season

Dragon Leap, Amrelhina, On the Bubbles ......Sinarhma may get the extra point required ( then will retire anyway)

any others......... 

by NZTR  no longer programming Rating 80's the pathway toward 100 is suppressed, damn near impossible, which will clog up the late 70's early 80's....these are the horses which will run in our Provincial Cup races.

...... and so the Pool of horses in the 95+ will continue to diminish..........the quality of our Group Races will reduce -  so expect more downgrades from the Pattern Committee

it's obvious isn't it..

 

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On 7/24/2022 at 9:19 PM, shaneMcAlister said:

A few months ago we were told there was going to be R60 races introduced to cope with the high number of horses in this rating band.  I think this was a good idea, I wish NZ racing was not in a state that it required these races, however we have to accept where we are.  There are people in NZ racing that strongly opposed these races.  So since the introduction of R60 rating races I have only seen one of them,,,,happy to be corrected.

So what's the point of saying we are having these races if we are not going to programme them?!?!

If R60 is introduced it will only be a short term solution , the masses will soon fall to that level and the complaining will recommence , what then? R55 . 

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5 minutes ago, tripple alliance said:

If R60 is introduced it will only be a short term solution , the masses will soon fall to that level and the complaining will recommence , what then? R55 . 

They are a better option than the stupid way the trots grade their horses. I am pretty sure a race winner can be rated lower than a maiden. Do correct me if I'm wrong. Their system is weird. Racing's is better but it isn't used as well as it could be.

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