john legend

The RACE GRINS DAY

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CONGRATULATIONS  to Cambridge Personnel for their courage to take a concept to reality. The racing gods have worked for you  with fine weather, great horses from 2 countries and end of restrictions. 

To David Branch and his worthy team Good Luck and thanks from harness racing enthusiasts throughout NZ.... 🐎🐎🐎🐎🐎🐎🐎🐎🐎

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10 minutes ago, Blue said:

And I don't doubt the Aussies will run something similar within the next twelve months but this could be a forerunner to a raft of high stake races.

I can't see a raft of high stakes races in NZ if it is all funded in convoluted fashions. There is only so much money that can be raised by sweepstakes and slot type races. With only about 7 eligible horses based in NZ for tighter class races the ability to fund and promote races for them is surely limited. That Addington country cups race for $100,000 looks to have attracted an interesting field. It might be the way to go in NZ.

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1 hour ago, eljay said:

Country Cups - formerly a grass track race

I think the Country Cup final is supposed to be a replacement for the time-honoured Easter Cup that has been scrapped. 

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On 4/14/2022 at 12:15 PM, Blue said:

And I don't doubt the Aussies will run something similar within the next twelve months but this could be a forerunner to a raft of high stake races.

It's their idea and Aussie had one pencilled in but not for this year. Just think David Branch (Cambridge) had the nouse to act quickly and get it up and going. Maybe an easy sell to HRNZ where HRA want more control.

 

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Be interesting to know the final financial balance for holding the Race. Will Cambridge take a hit? The club put in $150k itself and had done a lot to make it a pleasurable on-course event. They were lucky with the weather and the lifting of covid crowd restrictions and had done all the groundwork to capitilize on the resulting late bookings and gate sales. There will be some ongoing benefits to Auckland through hopefully better betting with the Aussie horses staying on.

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4 hours ago, Iraklis said:

I can't see why other Clubs can't do their own versions without HRNZ, it sounds logical to me; if there's nothin against harness rules an regs don't see why other Clubs can't do the same....

 

Cheers Iraklis

Absolutely nothing to stop them Iraklis. All they need is 10 benefactors to toss in $225,000+ each over three years and away they go. The two or three decent open class horses will keep fronting. Perhaps they could get the same 10 benefactors who fronted at Cambridge to toss in another $675,000 each to partly fund similar races at Alex Park, Addington and Ascot Park.

You could take a slot yourself Iraklis and see if you can get one of your favs to race for you.

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57 minutes ago, We're Doomed said:

Absolutely nothing to stop them Iraklis. All they need is 10 benefactors to toss in $225,000+ each over three years and away they go. The two or three decent open class horses will keep fronting. Perhaps they could get the same 10 benefactors who fronted at Cambridge to toss in another $675,000 each to partly fund similar races at Alex Park, Addington and Ascot Park.

You could take a slot yourself Iraklis and see if you can get one of your favs to race for you.

His favourites are too slow mate! 🤣

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Believe the fact only 3 winners (and spankem and Self Assured massive earners already) then 4th money in such a big race should have at least covered entry fee and the others get Half money back eg $75000 out $37500 back in is not good business just a constructive  thought.... at least 4th and 5th could have been 75 each even if a small reduction from 1,2,3. To say 3 in 10 chances to make a profit not good odds esp as the 2 above most likely to front up again. Maybe the Businesses regard the publicity worth participation so hope that to the general public also picks up.(suggest contact 1 and 3  news few days ahead  with full details) I hope it works for the future as the concept is exciting . (lets also bring jewels back !!! or am I just dreaming ??)

 

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4 hours ago, john legend said:

Believe the fact only 3 winners (and spankem and Self Assured massive earners already) then 4th money in such a big race should have at least covered entry fee and the others get Half money back eg $75000 out $37500 back in is not good business just a constructive  thought.... at least 4th and 5th could have been 75 each even if a small reduction from 1,2,3. To say 3 in 10 chances to make a profit not good odds esp as the 2 above most likely to front up again. Maybe the Businesses regard the publicity worth participation so hope that to the general public also picks up.(suggest contact 1 and 3  news few days ahead  with full details) I hope it works for the future as the concept is exciting . (lets also bring jewels back !!! or am I just dreaming ??)

 

I think I should clarify something for you Legend. You are suggesting the first three home all made money for their connections and the slotholders, and perhaps the fouth stake should be boosted so they break even as well. That isn't correct. Only the winner showed a profit for both the horse's connections and the slotholder. This is something I wrote elsewhere. No one has suggested it is incorrect. Do let me know if I have got anything wrong.

The winner got $340,000, after deductions for trainer and driver.  So roughly $170,000 each for the slot holder and connections, assuming it was a 50/50 split, although since it was the hot fav if I was the connections I would probably have asked for a 70/30 split. But assuming it was 50/50 the slot holder made a $95,000 profit for their investment. About a 120% return on their investment, so good work if you can get it.

After deductions the second placegetter ended up with $106,250; $53,125 each for slot holder and connections. Slotholder only lost $21,875. Better luck next year.

Third placegetter $36,125 for each of slotholder and connections. So slot holder lost $38,875. And so it goes as we go down to the also rans where the slot holders lost about $50,000 each.

In what way does this make any sort of business sense for the slot holders? Only one of the 10 of them had any chance of showing a profit, and if this year's winning slot holder doesn't have a horse run in the first two for either of the next two years they will end up losing money overall.

It was also interesting that the All Stars didn't purchase a slot. You would have thought they had every chance of winning the race and ending up with all the winning stake. Perhaps they thought it was a bad business proposition.

For the connections of the winner and placegetters it was basically the same as racing in a $300,000 race.

As I say, I'm not a big trotting follower these days, and I wouldn't have known the race even existed if I hadn't looked on here, and I may be missing something totally, but I just don't get the business sense in all this. Why would 10 groups of people invest in a something that they were 90% guaranteed to lose money.

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WD....for someone who repeatedly tells us he's not a big follower of Trots you sure have taken a huge interest in the RACE and gone out of your way to convince us what a bad idea it was !

And you provide all sorts of $$$ calculations to convince us of your opinion ,and send us all on the road to doom and gloom.

 

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WD you are right but the horse owner split and costs are not officially known so I discussed on a gross return . obviously the case to the slot holder is more complicated and every entry would be different eg.getting Australian horses to come here. Slot holders where Radio stations etc. are involved may receive intangible benefits . owners of horses may also have wanted a flat fee as well for using their horse.. However if it simply is not viable then it will not continue.BUT I really hope with some tweaking and HRNZ funds it will grow and become major part of harness year...

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8 hours ago, tasman man said:

WD....for someone who repeatedly tells us he's not a big follower of Trots you sure have taken a huge interest in the RACE and gone out of your way to convince us what a bad idea it was !

And you provide all sorts of $$$ calculations to convince us of your opinion ,and send us all on the road to doom and gloom.

 

Hello Tas

You are correct. I'm not a huge follower these days, but my formative years in Racing were spent at the trots and I saw all of the greats during the late 70s and through the 80s. Even attended about four interdominions. I have found the Race interesting, largely because some people have suggested what a great idea it is and we should have more of them. I have never set out to convince people what a bad idea it was. Some people loved it so it did create some interest at a time when harness racing in the north is struggling.

I do struggle with the concept myself as it relies on the generosity of ten benefactors who are happy to lose most of their money. It is based on the Everest, but that race is quite different in many respects.  There is competition for places in the Everest, with ballots on the day, and even now commentators are discussing likely contenders for next year every time a decent sprint race is run in NSW. The Everest enhances the interest in numerous lead up races.  Unfortunately in NZ we don't seem to have the depth to create competition for places and there aren't lead up races that benefit from the lure of the Race. Also most of the slots in the Everest are held by major trainers, owners or breeeders.

My calculations weren't intended to convince people of my opinion. They were merely to show some people how it works based on the information I have seen. A lot of people don't understand the concept.

I hope people don't mind me sharing a few thoughts occasionally. After all, one of the most prolific posters on here often tells us he never bets. At least I am a punter and my outsiders view of harness racing might be of interest occasionally. Harness racing does tend to be a closed shop at times so a bit of perspective does no harm.

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13 hours ago, We're Doomed said:

I think I should clarify something for you Legend. You are suggesting the first three home all made money for their connections and the slotholders, and perhaps the fouth stake should be boosted so they break even as well. That isn't correct. Only the winner showed a profit for both the horse's connections and the slotholder. This is something I wrote elsewhere. No one has suggested it is incorrect. Do let me know if I have got anything wrong.

The winner got $340,000, after deductions for trainer and driver.  So roughly $170,000 each for the slot holder and connections, assuming it was a 50/50 split, although since it was the hot fav if I was the connections I would probably have asked for a 70/30 split. But assuming it was 50/50 the slot holder made a $95,000 profit for their investment. About a 120% return on their investment, so good work if you can get it.

After deductions the second placegetter ended up with $106,250; $53,125 each for slot holder and connections. Slotholder only lost $21,875. Better luck next year.

Third placegetter $36,125 for each of slotholder and connections. So slot holder lost $38,875. And so it goes as we go down to the also rans where the slot holders lost about $50,000 each.

In what way does this make any sort of business sense for the slot holders? Only one of the 10 of them had any chance of showing a profit, and if this year's winning slot holder doesn't have a horse run in the first two for either of the next two years they will end up losing money overall.

It was also interesting that the All Stars didn't purchase a slot. You would have thought they had every chance of winning the race and ending up with all the winning stake. Perhaps they thought it was a bad business proposition.

For the connections of the winner and placegetters it was basically the same as racing in a $300,000 race.

As I say, I'm not a big trotting follower these days, and I wouldn't have known the race even existed if I hadn't looked on here, and I may be missing something totally, but I just don't get the business sense in all this. Why would 10 groups of people invest in a something that they were 90% guaranteed to lose money.

Hi mate

50% of $170,000 isn't $95,000

 

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10 minutes ago, Mikie said:

Hi mate

50% of $170,000 isn't $95,000

 

Hi Mate

$95,000 is the difference between a 50% share of the winnings, $170,000, and the $75,000 cost of a slot. I doubt it would have been a 50/50 arrangement to get the hot fav, but we will never know the exact arrangement so I have gone with 50/50. I suspect the slot holder's profit may have only been about $75,000.

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13 hours ago, We're Doomed said:

I think I should clarify something for you Legend. You are suggesting the first three home all made money for their connections and the slotholders, and perhaps the fouth stake should be boosted so they break even as well. That isn't correct. Only the winner showed a profit for both the horse's connections and the slotholder. This is something I wrote elsewhere. No one has suggested it is incorrect. Do let me know if I have got anything wrong.

The winner got $340,000, after deductions for trainer and driver.  So roughly $170,000 each for the slot holder and connections, assuming it was a 50/50 split, although since it was the hot fav if I was the connections I would probably have asked for a 70/30 split. But assuming it was 50/50 the slot holder made a $95,000 profit for their investment. About a 120% return on their investment, so good work if you can get it.

After deductions the second placegetter ended up with $106,250; $53,125 each for slot holder and connections. Slotholder only lost $21,875. Better luck next year.

Third placegetter $36,125 for each of slotholder and connections. So slot holder lost $38,875. And so it goes as we go down to the also rans where the slot holders lost about $50,000 each.

In what way does this make any sort of business sense for the slot holders? Only one of the 10 of them had any chance of showing a profit, and if this year's winning slot holder doesn't have a horse run in the first two for either of the next two years they will end up losing money overall.

It was also interesting that the All Stars didn't purchase a slot. You would have thought they had every chance of winning the race and ending up with all the winning stake. Perhaps they thought it was a bad business proposition.

For the connections of the winner and placegetters it was basically the same as racing in a $300,000 race.

As I say, I'm not a big trotting follower these days, and I wouldn't have known the race even existed if I hadn't looked on here, and I may be missing something totally, but I just don't get the business sense in all this. Why would 10 groups of people invest in a something that they were 90% guaranteed to lose money.

WD , all your calculations are being made with little knowledge made of who made what contributions to the Slots , the transport cost of horses and people and the agreed distribution of the prize money at the completion of race. 

And why does it even bother you ? 

And what does it matter......it of little concern other than to the organiser and participants .

Why you so concerned with the obvious 'business' aspects of the event which the Industry is welcoming as something NEW and designed to maybe encourage interest in the top end of NZ Harness and help encourage investment , and horse retention , maybe betting increases and interest from new and young people etc.

The organisers said they were counting on Harness enthusiasts/participants to chip in and buy the slots to get the idea off the ground.

And participants stepped in and various groups got all slots filled with a couple missing out....they made it work.

Your comment re All Stars is puzzling......why would a newish training operation which has gone through complex change in past year take a slot which would most likely lead to serious conflict of interest issues and alienate owners. Big time !

As it is  at least 6 of the 9 slots that raced involved current or recent AllStars owners.

And who would know how each slot was configurated.

Is it odd that the top rated horse was representing a radio station ? Think about it ....don't radio stations usually deal in contras !

In line with your doomed theme you repeatedly remind us you never knew much about the RACE being on .....it was rather hastily put together after the idea was announced and expressions of interest invited .....a matter of weeks , but it was out there. MG said in todays paper interest created was massive so the truth there probably somewhere in between.

Overall it may not make a lot of business sense ,but I think the idea is more to promote Harness and lift the industry/sport out of the grips of doom and gloom.

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14 hours ago, tasman man said:

WD....for someone who repeatedly tells us he's not a big follower of Trots you sure have taken a huge interest in the RACE and gone out of your way to convince us what a bad idea it was !

And you provide all sorts of $$$ calculations to convince us of your opinion ,and send us all on the road to doom and gloom.

 

Ultimately we r all doomed as We're doomed says, but nothing like a few wins and good racing along the way to enjoy before the doomed end arrives lol.

Some folk really enjoyed THE RACE , even though some say there's a lot of Penny counting and what-not going on. Doubt anyone would buy a slot if they couldn't afford it , and like everyone involved in a sport , they're paying for the entertainment as much as anything. Can't all buy the 'winning' slot so is fun having a go though.

Hope a Copy of the ALL star mile (that is run in Victoria gallops) is done next as that gathered a lot of public interest throughout Australia and NZ.. People can vote for horses on the website to get in the race , and lucky ones are drawn for each runner in the final field and could win a large prize for their support. Another wonderful idea IMO.

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5 hours ago, We're Doomed said:

Hi Mate

$95,000 is the difference between a 50% share of the winnings, $170,000, and the $75,000 cost of a slot. I doubt it would have been a 50/50 arrangement to get the hot fav, but we will never know the exact arrangement so I have gone with 50/50. I suspect the slot holder's profit may have only been about $75,000.

My bad

I didn't read your post properly

Too much haste, not enough intelligence at my end!

Mike

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