Waikato Program

[lamour 673]

I see they have carded a pace up to R45 for $9k and a pace up to R65 for $9k.                No wonder owners are selling their higher rated horses.       Can we please stop this nonsense.    The Up to R45 should be $7k and the up to 65 $11k.

[We're Doomed 4,866]

6 minutes ago, lamour said:

I see they have carded a pace up to R45 for $9k and a pace up to R65 for $9k.                No wonder owners are selling their higher rated horses.       Can we please stop this nonsense.    The Up to R45 should be $7k and the up to 65 $11k.

Not as bad as Southland. Down there the maidens race for more than those that have won 5 or 6 races. Never been able to understand that logic but someone must like it. Theory seems to be win a maiden and then you are on your own. If you are silly enough to keep a horse in NZ once it has won its maiden then you don't deserve any better.

[lamour 673]

I think instead of having a minimum stake across the board we should have minimum stakes for several rating bands

[We're Doomed 4,866]

1 hour ago, lamour said:

I think instead of having a minimum stake across the board we should have minimum stakes for several rating bands

That did used to be the old model, but we do live in a whole new age.

[Nelli 434]

At $9k Cambridge is giving max $$ for the least rating points for a win. Anything over would give same rating points for a win as a $15k win at Auckland.  It costs just as much to train an R45 as an R65 and IMO the $$/rating differentials between Auckland and Cambridge give owners and trainers a clear choice where to place their horses. Note that on the big Race night the supporting races are up to the next band threshold. 

[Barry Lichter 179]

That's a crucial point NELLI about it costing as much to train a R45 horse as a R65. I'm not so sure that the old model of the prizemoney rising as you go up the grades is sustainable any longer. In Queensland, where Lincoln Farms has had a lot of success racing horses that were no longer competitive here, they have a revolving system where each class gets a bite at the bigger money. When Tommy Lincoln won a band 4-2 race a couple of weeks ago the stake was $20,466, while the top free-for-allers raced for only $14,867. The previous week the R58 to R70 pacers had their turn for $20,770, about the same as the open pacers. Another week the top horses raced for $15,100 and the R60 to R75 horses $21,378 and the mares $20,770. I see plenty of merit in that system. The reason owners are selling their progressive horses is not because of the stakemoney, as LAMOUR claims, it's because so many horses are being sold overseas and the brutal handicapping system sees the ones remaining forced to take on the topliners so soon, particularly in the north where low numbers have reached a critical point.

[hsvman 294]

What’s the point of winning a race to end up in a higher grade and race for the same money, you’d be better off trying to run places and picking up easier money staying in the garde below 

[We're Doomed 4,866]

2 hours ago, hsvman said:

What’s the point of winning a race to end up in a higher grade and race for the same money, you’d be better off trying to run places and picking up easier money staying in the garde below 

For an awfully long time the big problem with harness racing has been a reluctance to move through the grades. It permeates all levels of the industry. Penalty free races used to be rife, and at a time when horses were desperately needed in the intermediate and higher grades. That is still the case, although now there isn't really an intermediate grade so to speak and horses, especially in the north, can find themselves quickly racing against the guns.

The only time horses have been desperate to win races to move through the grades was in the days when you needed 10 wins to start in the NZ Cup. That usually created a lot of interest in lead up races. These days if you are handy enough you could win a maiden at the end of September and just about get a start in the Cup if you could string the wins together.

I don't really think the handicapping system works in Trotting. As a casual observer I don't understand it at all. The gallops basically just have maidens, up to 65, up to 72, up to 80 and then open races. All pretty simple. Easily understood by the public. I think harness winners can actually be rated lower than a maiden, which is just weird. The system needs to be much more transparent.

Many of you will recall when most of the country cups etc were 6 win fronts. They usually provided very competitive racing as horses worked their way through the grades. These days a six win horse would be making up the numbers against some superstar in an open race.

So as Hsvman said, there does need to be some incentive for horses to move through the grades and provide competitive intermediate grade racing. Otherwise you will have horses trying to work the system and run as many places as possible before progressing. The already busy stipes will really have their work cut out. Before you know it people will be referring to the harness cose as thieves on wheels and other such derogatory terms.

[Nelli 434]

Certainly I know as an owner up north is the last thing you want a maiden to do is to win first up as then the novice, with little racecraft, will be racing against seasoned multi winners. And there is much celebration when our R70s horse runs 2nd. Owners shouldn't need to dread winning but the way racing up here is now it can take months for a horse to drop down in rating and be competitive again, all the time with training bills to be paid. 

Given that the number of owners/horses up north isn't going to magically improve, IMO the Auckland and Cambridge clubs should be working closely together (NOT competing) and talking frequently with trainers as to how to optimise fields and returns for horses across all grades (= more horses paying their way and able to stay in NZ). I like the Queensland model of revolving higher stake races amongst classes. Also if 2yo trotters get to race for $2K if insufficent numbers for a tote race, why is it against the rules for open class horses?  Costs similar to train both and better than having no race at all when trainers want their horses to have a run under race conditions.

[tasman man 742]

9 hours ago, Barry Lichter said:

That's a crucial point NELLI about it costing as much to train a R45 horse as a R65. I'm not so sure that the old model of the prizemoney rising as you go up the grades is sustainable any longer. In Queensland, where Lincoln Farms has had a lot of success racing horses that were no longer competitive here, they have a revolving system where each class gets a bite at the bigger money. When Tommy Lincoln won a band 4-2 race a couple of weeks ago the stake was $20,466, while the top free-for-allers raced for only $14,867. The previous week the R58 to R70 pacers had their turn for $20,770, about the same as the open pacers. Another week the top horses raced for $15,100 and the R60 to R75 horses $21,378 and the mares $20,770. I see plenty of merit in that system. The reason owners are selling their progressive horses is not because of the stakemoney, as LAMOUR claims, it's because so many horses are being sold overseas and the brutal handicapping system sees the ones remaining forced to take on the topliners so soon, particularly in the north where low numbers have reached a critical point.

The brutal handicapping system along with the available options to race your horse in like v like for stakes where only a few horses can break even cos of the low stakes to cost ratio is exacerbated by the fact that Australians in particular are  often prepared to pay big money to buy your steed to race in a nearby bigger and wealthier jurisdiction where the irritations here do not seem to prevail.

Harness owners here are  indeed resilient while thoroughbred owners too also lack options. I see today where a 'Lincoln' stayer gone to Australia to regularly race over 2500m plus.In NZ you can count those races on two hands.

We all seem to know the issues but can't seem to agree on the solution.

30 or 40 horses into  North Harness would help boost the small fields , but not as cannon fodder for premier horses ,they would need to be racing with some chance to earn and pay their way. This ain't a new problem ,it's been around for years ! Why then , no action ?