chevy86 2,710 Report post Posted March 29, 2022 Why is it that there has only been one track record run (and that was over the rare distance 1100m in 2010) at Ellerslie this century? Surely not due to track watering? Or lack of tempo early preventing a genuine race and plenty of interference? Just curious. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruff 2,800 Report post Posted March 29, 2022 Yeah you only have to look at WFA 2000m races at Ellerslie Chev over the past 20 years,most are pedestrian affairs with little more than a sprint home and that's running for over 100k From Memory only Soriano has come from last in a 2.02 race when pressure went on from the 800m .look at the Avondale Jockey Club website and track records are nowhere to be seen let alone ever challenged and comprehensive track data is thin on the ground . Piss poor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phar Lap Fan 104 Report post Posted March 29, 2022 National Records. Haven't up-dated my list for several years but had listed the times from 800 m. to 3,200m. For distances over 1,400m., all times were set before 1994, except for 2,500m. in 1995. The 1,200m. of 1:06.59 by Victory Dais in 1993, may have been bettered if Trentham could accurately measure the time and distance. High Glee ran 6 furlongs in 1:08, in 1968 and Johnny Cash ran 1.5 miles in 2.25, in 1969. Fifty years later and the speed of all horses may have increased but appears that there is little improvement at the "elite" level. So, did all the expensive, imported stallions and mare add much pace? Races will always have a winner but are they getting better? Captain Cook, an otherwise modest performer, went under 2 minutes for 2,000m. in 1992 - 30 years ago. How often does that happen? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mckenzie 608 Report post Posted March 30, 2022 6 hours ago, Gruff said: Yeah you only have to look at WFA 2000m races at Ellerslie Chev over the past 20 years,most are pedestrian affairs with little more than a sprint home and that's running for over 100k That's true. So many races now something gets to the lead and drops anchor to try and get a soft run then make it a sprint home. It does also seem there are less frontrunning horses now. Back in the day you would get those horses that put the pressure on from the start and tried to break their opposition. Now it's about cheap sectionals and riding conservatively. Certainly makes the racing less exciting. Gruff 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shad 1,558 Report post Posted March 30, 2022 Interesting, hardly ever heard of these days, in the good old days all track records were usually in all race books, never see them these days, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue 1,099 Report post Posted March 30, 2022 Remember when we had heavy, soft, easy, hard & fast track ratings, then we guaged by the penetrometer which was essentially scientific guess work. Simple answer is we don't (won't) race on hard and fast tracks any more as a result of which we rarely see a record time. Memphis3 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruff 2,800 Report post Posted March 30, 2022 2 hours ago, Blue said: Remember when we had heavy, soft, easy, hard & fast track ratings, then we guaged by the penetrometer which was essentially scientific guess work. Simple answer is we don't (won't) race on hard and fast tracks any more as a result of which we rarely see a record time. So you squaring blame on Course managers Blue Boy? I remember the day Riodinin ran 1.21 flat and the sometimes impressive Mumms jewel 1.8.3 yet the Dunstan qualifier was a 2.18 amble. A Japanese crowd sees 2.18 semifored for 2200 there would be a riot Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gubellini 4,004 Report post Posted March 30, 2022 Shad track records were listed in the Matamata Race Book today. 1100m Sea Saint 1.03.31 1200m Captain Kurt 1.08.44 1400m Javelin 1.20.75 1600m Fire Commander 1.33.10 2000m Princess Kyoto 2.01.00 Interestingly Javelin and Fire Commander set their records on the same day- 16/2/91. No prizes for guessing who rode them! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruff 2,800 Report post Posted March 30, 2022 2 minutes ago, gubellini said: Shad track records were listed in the Matamata Race Book today. 1100m Sea Saint 1.03.31 1200m Captain Kurt 1.08.44 1400m Javelin 1.20.75 1600m Fire Commander 1.33.10 2000m Princess Kyoto 2.01.00 Interestingly Javelin and Fire Commander set their records on the same day- 16/2/91. No prizes for guessing who rode them! Peter Tims? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruff 2,800 Report post Posted March 30, 2022 That 2.01 was bettered by Guarantor after Matimba set up the 2.00.6 2016 Kaimai Stakes, Guess what who set up Princess Ks time couldnt get close, .. Matimba lead up a 1.33 .4 mile win there its previous start ,Anna Jones in the saddle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shad 1,558 Report post Posted March 30, 2022 40 minutes ago, gubellini said: Shad track records were listed in the Matamata Race Book today. 1100m Sea Saint 1.03.31 1200m Captain Kurt 1.08.44 1400m Javelin 1.20.75 1600m Fire Commander 1.33.10 2000m Princess Kyoto 2.01.00 Interestingly Javelin and Fire Commander set their records on the same day- 16/2/91. No prizes for guessing who rode them! Glad to hear that, must be the only the ones that I see these days, but don't see as many as I once did, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue 1,099 Report post Posted March 30, 2022 12 hours ago, Gruff said: So you squaring blame on Course managers Blue Boy? Not at all Gruff. It seems that all trainers these days prefer a "cut in the ground" and as long as there is easing there's unlikely to be any records set. Never hear a trainer say his horse is better "on top of the ground". Anyway times are secondary aren't they? Winning is the important thing regardless. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruff 2,800 Report post Posted March 30, 2022 1 hour ago, Blue said: Not at all Gruff. It seems that all trainers these days prefer a "cut in the ground" and as long as there is easing there's unlikely to be any records set. Never hear a trainer say his horse is better "on top of the ground". Anyway times are secondary aren't they? Winning is the important thing regardless. Just tugging ya leg Blue, times are secondary for everyone bar the serious punter and owners and trainers of notorious back runners ,they know walk sprints bring in more variables. Look at the US and Japan handlebars down, best horse on the day wins a greater percentage of races, not that many hard luck stories ....our stipes reports are full.of hard luck stories and I'm sure this shouldnt be a game relying on 'good fortune' .in saying that you know the odds now beat them Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stodge 1,949 Report post Posted March 31, 2022 21 hours ago, Gruff said: Just tugging ya leg Blue, times are secondary for everyone bar the serious punter and owners and trainers of notorious back runners ,they know walk sprints bring in more variables. Look at the US and Japan handlebars down, best horse on the day wins a greater percentage of races, not that many hard luck stories ....our stipes reports are full.of hard luck stories and I'm sure this shouldnt be a game relying on 'good fortune' .in saying that you know the odds now beat them That's part of the racing culture especially in America where they go hard from the gate especially on the dirt. The turf can be more nuanced but you can almost hear the incredulity in the course commentator if they ran a 50 second first 800m for example. In France, it's slow, slow, quick, quick, slow so to speak and as for the UK and Ireland it's a mix. You do get the tactical cat-and-mouse races and you get the searching end-to-end gallops. One of the big parts of form analysis over here (as it is in NZ too I would imagine) is trying to figure out the pace angle. There are so many good jockeys over here at riding the fractions (often those who've spent some time in the US) - Frankie Dettori's probably the master. Gruff 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berri 2,131 Report post Posted March 31, 2022 Four things come to mind.... 1. Manual stop watch governing of the times. Judge or stipe always keen to get to the finish line 2. There was no watering of tracks as there is today. You used to hear the track rattle. Interestingly enough, less deaths per 1000 horses back then to now. Probably had something to do with genetics, bone density (could be genetics/ feed/ training processes) and straight out good horsemanship 3. Genetic plateau - 3 stallions and 40 broodmares to start with which has morphed into a greedy genetic rape of why the thoroughbred was created in the first place. Stallions covering 150+ mares have screwed the breed because we no longer have sustainable genetic bio-diversity in our herd. The breed used to be tough enduring horses but with the introduction of Northern Dancer we have bred a disposable/ short life span style of horse 4. Where were the starting gates positioned? Blue and Gruff 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...