Crisis

[eljay 1,720]

Jacinda, after months of denial, has finally admitted there is a cost of living crisis.       The ATC also after months (years?) of she'll be right must surely see that a crisis exists in northern harness.      It's time for them to tell the members/punters what their plans are to right this problem - and urgently too!     And we are talking their core business not their failings as developers.

[john legend 744]

This week can only see 6 or 7 horse races happening. Is this good for the club or punters .as you say eljay the core Business is running on empty... 

[eljay 1,720]

The small numbers caused by the brilliant idea of the TAB/HRNZ having mini carnivals north & south.    Thinking caps back on again boys!!

[mikenz 1,091]

59 noms for a premier night, seems there are some very good horses but from a betting perspective it must be costing the industry, someone else must be losing out.

[Mikie 326]

55 minutes ago, eljay said:

The small numbers caused by the brilliant idea of the TAB/HRNZ having mini carnivals north & south.    Thinking caps back on again boys!!

You don't think that (a) back to back North meetings has an impact or (b)some  trainers aren't willing for their horses to be cannon fodder against top liners in some races?

[tasman man 742]

43 minutes ago, eljay said:

The small numbers caused by the brilliant idea of the TAB/HRNZ having mini carnivals north & south.    Thinking caps back on again boys!!

This brilliant idea only been in place a few months so unlikely to change much in 5 minutes !

But the real issues, and I see/hear of little to change it is the severe shortage of horses in the North along with the continuing sale of the 'second tier' of horses to Overseas !

A small number of horses can win the bigger races to pay their way , a huge number of horses are simply slow plodders who prefer grass tracks and minor meetings , while the ones with the ability to compete at the highest level get an offer which is usually too good to refuse and keeps the battlers in the game !

And despite the fact that horses have changed birthdays and are now older than previous , connections seem reluctant to race horses as 2 year olds.

Does NZ Harness even need to have 'big' races in the North.......why not just have them all in South Island. Gallops nearly does that now in reverse with Group 1 +2  races and Jumping !

I could see you living in Canterbury Lloyd.... 2 or 3 meetings nearby most weeks , cheaper petrol and prices in general  and more disposable income to spend, no Warriors to worry about and a winning rugby team to support. You would love it !!!!

[mikenz 1,091]

Now the Derby is for three year olds, the oaks for 3 year old fillies, so why run both races on the same programme ?

Galloping clubs are often scheduling 2 open handicap races yet barely get enough for 1 race, often end up with one race,.

[john legend 744]

Must be a new low for a friday night NTDs all night and 1 trot with the big field ,(9) imagine say the norm 4 scratchings for the meet where do we go to correct the problem? .I wonder if the ATC are even discussing it because if it gets worse the Racing/TAB gods may cancel a meeting regardless of Clubs desires. I admit its not a solution  but have they considered (1)not racing every week. (fortnightly?)(alternate with Cambridge) (2)having reserve races. or (3). discussing with trainers/owners what they want and wouldsupport AS mentioned(4) spread the features out over march april may .(5) Add some novelty races eg. to break course records. big bonuses or(6)try for the owners perhaps claimers (its been wanting before but worth a try again) as can class horses on the owners value. All I have heard is introduce a large export fee to retain our horses here. Well that seems a negative approach for starters..... And a "do nothing" option while sometimes is a business plan it should be a last resort only.

[JJ Flash 2,136]

5 minutes ago, john legend said:

I wonder if the ATC are even discussing it because if it gets worse the Racing/TAB gods may cancel a meeting regardless of Clubs desires.

Not sure that TAB can cancel a meeting unless its staff could not televise such a meeting. It would be the Club or HRNZ that has the rights to cancellation

[john legend 744]

In the new racing structure the TAB has the role of making a profit to return a dividend to HRNZ and then to clubs . They do have a say if they are looking at any loss making scenarios. Now with the ATC unable to card fields of any size  (size does matter with the TAB as they have proved this) I believe there will be some harsh words spoken. A directive is sometimes given to clubs when noms are called that a certain race will not be run unless a certain number of acceptances are received. (10 in recent manawatu case)

[eljay 1,720]

John - wish I was clever and had the answers - but I do know the good old Kiwi remedy (She'll be right) wont work here.     I know it's easy to criticise but something has to be done and urgently to save the sport in the North.     Desperate times - possibly yes.      To me fields of under 10 starters need to be avoided if at all possible..     It may sound like sacrilege but clubs surely have to present an attractive package to woo the fans, and if this means to can group ones when insufficient nominations received so be it   Let's hope something is done to prevent further terminal damage..      

[Nelli 434]

Certainly serious thought needed as to how to get good fields in the north. Auckland offers good stakes so that not the issue - we just don't have enough owners. Expecting multiple horses to be flitting up and down between Canterbury and the north for feature races is a no-goer: as owners who've done it multple times, we've learnt the hard way that the costs and risks are not worth it unless you have the top horse in the country. IMO the north needs to look at the trends and rethink the races being carded. Yes, we still need feature races up here as aspirational goals but they don't have to be the same as 20 years ago. How much consultation do ATC and Cambridge do with their northern trainers about what sort of races they would like, and when? For example,  it was no surprise to me that last week half of the novice trotters withdrew when the 8 horse maiden trot was canned as the trainers didn't want the novices in against experienced horses. Nor would I be suprized if the trainer of the ballotted horse in the large maiden trot this week is annoyed.  Imagine instead if maiden trots had been run both weeks, Auckland a mobile and Cambridge a stand. Could well have had full fields for both. 

[tasman man 742]

8 hours ago, eljay said:

John - wish I was clever and had the answers - but I do know the good old Kiwi remedy (She'll be right) wont work here.     I know it's easy to criticise but something has to be done and urgently to save the sport in the North.     Desperate times - possibly yes.      To me fields of under 10 starters need to be avoided if at all possible..     It may sound like sacrilege but clubs surely have to present an attractive package to woo the fans, and if this means to can group ones when insufficient nominations received so be it   Let's hope something is done to prevent further terminal damage..      

Canning Group 1 races ?????? Now you being silly Lloyd ...maybe incentivise more starters ,but can the race.......dumb !

When Jewels started  in most of the races.....all starters received at least $5k which obviously helped travel etc.

But by now I hear you should have received ,as a member of ATC , a very positive and comforting note from your President.

Changes in the Board and Management a key to future success.

Your club is in a strong financial position......Thru Valuations of sky rocketing land prices the Net asset position is massive !

Land sales are about to go thru and they  now fighting to sign up to rental leases and offices too .

Note.......         I suggest you protect tour viewing room next to the birdcage ,before it becomes a hairdresser or medical centre !

The Clubs position is Strong....to reduce debt and trade profitably .

On race night , people are coming back and having a great time ! Over 100 were there recently !

Yes there is a shortage of horses but this a NZ wide problem [ Is this a fact ?? ] Certainly is of higher rated / Open class horses.

And the big FIX is planned to start ASAP....

 * Breed more horses

 * Fix the broken Handicapping System

 * Help syndicators to get more owners involved 

 * Incentives to attract more horses to Alex Park

And the game changer...a Harness only TV channel ,dedicated to trots with winning tips and great interviews etc..5 hours on Friday nights !

It sounds Amazing , Bloody Brilliant ...

Expect Bliss and  Happiness from Alexandra Park .

[JJ Flash 2,136]

17 hours ago, john legend said:

They do have a say if they are looking at any loss making scenarios.

Have to correct you John on this point . TAB now distribute profits to Racing NZ board for distributions to codes , thus its in the clubs interests to run profitable meetings or their share of pie is diminished.Thus , the TAB under new act would have no interest in the Micro side of racing they only provide coverage and wagering infrastructure.

[eljay 1,720]

TM - I'm speechless!!!!!

 

[Mikie 326]

13 hours ago, tasman man said:

Canning Group 1 races ?????? Now you being silly Lloyd ...maybe incentivise more starters ,but can the race.......dumb !

When Jewels started  in most of the races.....all starters received at least $5k which obviously helped travel etc.

But by now I hear you should have received ,as a member of ATC , a very positive and comforting note from your President.

Changes in the Board and Management a key to future success.

Your club is in a strong financial position......Thru Valuations of sky rocketing land prices the Net asset position is massive !

Land sales are about to go thru and they  now fighting to sign up to rental leases and offices too .

Note.......         I suggest you protect tour viewing room next to the birdcage ,before it becomes a hairdresser or medical centre !

The Clubs position is Strong....to reduce debt and trade profitably .

On race night , people are coming back and having a great time ! Over 100 were there recently !

Yes there is a shortage of horses but this a NZ wide problem [ Is this a fact ?? ] Certainly is of higher rated / Open class horses.

And the big FIX is planned to start ASAP....

 * Breed more horses

 * Fix the broken Handicapping System

 * Help syndicators to get more owners involved 

 * Incentives to attract more horses to Alex Park

And the game changer...a Harness only TV channel ,dedicated to trots with winning tips and great interviews etc..5 hours on Friday nights !

It sounds Amazing , Bloody Brilliant ...

Expect Bliss and  Happiness from Alexandra Park .

You're taking the piss aren't you?

Greater land values are only of use if you sell aren't they?

If I had $10 for every time I've heard the words "fix the handicapping system" I'd be rich

Wasn't the last go at fixing it meant to be the answer?

At the end of the day you can tinker with the handicapping system as much as you want, but if you run the same number of rtaces from 1 season to the next you will have the same number of winners

Changes merely mean "who" wins is altered

But wait I hear, the changes will magically increase the number of horses racing .... in that case our troubles are over

 

[eljay 1,720]

Handicapping system - I can't really see what they can do.      If a horse has won 1 race it is a 1 win horse.etc.    If you then want to include stakes won, either in total or for wins only it wont change anything really.      A horse that has just won 1 race which was say 40,000 gets handicapped where?   A 1 win horse or a 40,000 horse.     Either way trying to race like against like becomes very difficult where you pool is so small.

[tasman man 742]

1 hour ago, Mikie said:

You're taking the piss aren't you?

Greater land values are only of use if you sell aren't they?

If I had $10 for every time I've heard the words "fix the handicapping system" I'd be rich

Wasn't the last go at fixing it meant to be the answer?

At the end of the day you can tinker with the handicapping system as much as you want, but if you run the same number of rtaces from 1 season to the next you will have the same number of winners

Changes merely mean "who" wins is altered

But wait I hear, the changes will magically increase the number of horses racing .... in that case our troubles are over

 

No piss taking , just paraphrasing the Presidents latest report.

Call it smoke and mirrors , call it corporate gobbledegook call it what you like ....I'm just letting you know what the Club is hanging on to as its glimmer of hope !

Never mind the huge loss on Development ,the current overdraft ,the stripping  back of staff etc this is the current thinking.

We are now better off than we were previous .......the net Asset situation is better than before the recent disasters including Covid struck.

I can't comment what I think because I may get 'caught' by the 'Code of Conduct' stuff that was bandied about.

Handicapping is generally used as a scapegoat ,but as a small time owner my main issue is when horses are not allowed to race against similar class of horse , it seems silly that if you lucky to win then you then have to race to lose points or forced to sell overseas where they love our educated pre-made horses and will pay a good price for them because they have the betting might to give every horse a prolonged career of being competitive.

Other gripe with owning is that the stakes increases over years nowhere near match the cost increases of ownership so  owners need to accept that its an expensive hobby for most.

What is your answer Mikie ?

You saved a lot of Clubs financially over the years....you understand how both sides work.

What ,if anything ,can be done to save the sport/Industry in the North ?

[frankie 119]

Tasman Man, I think you drank too much on Monday night in the Chinese Restaurant. 

"The Clubs position is Strong". After the Greenlane Road sale the ATC will still owe in excess of $50 million. Most retail spots in the new development are empty.

How on earth are they going to service that debt with interest rates increasing? They can't sell Pukekohe so where are they going to generate income from?

 

 

[Ohokaman 5,843]

3 hours ago, Mikie said:

You're taking the piss aren't you?

Greater land values are only of use if you sell aren't they?

If I had $10 for every time I've heard the words "fix the handicapping system" I'd be rich

Wasn't the last go at fixing it meant to be the answer?

At the end of the day you can tinker with the handicapping system as much as you want, but if you run the same number of rtaces from 1 season to the next you will have the same number of winners

Changes merely mean "who" wins is altered

But wait I hear, the changes will magically increase the number of horses racing .... in that case our troubles are over

 

That’s half the problem Mikie, look at the export stats for Feb- March….over 50 horses gone to Australia.

https://infohorse.hrnz.co.nz/datahrs/statistics/exportedhorses.htm

[Mikie 326]

3 hours ago, eljay said:

Handicapping system - I can't really see what they can do.      If a horse has won 1 race it is a 1 win horse.etc.    If you then want to include stakes won, either in total or for wins only it wont change anything really.      A horse that has just won 1 race which was say 40,000 gets handicapped where?   A 1 win horse or a 40,000 horse.     Either way trying to race like against like becomes very difficult where you pool is so small.

Exactly

[tasman man 742]

2 hours ago, frankie said:

Tasman Man, I think you drank too much on Monday night in the Chinese Restaurant. 

"The Clubs position is Strong". After the Greenlane Road sale the ATC will still owe in excess of $50 million. Most retail spots in the new development are empty.

How on earth are they going to service that debt with interest rates increasing? They can't sell Pukekohe so where are they going to generate income from?

 

 

Are you saying I should not believe everything I am told  ?

Do ATC people tell porkies ?

Surely not....members and folk in high places would not tolerate it !

[Mikie 326]

3 hours ago, tasman man said:

 

What is your answer Mikie ?

You saved a lot of Clubs financially over the years....you understand how both sides work.

What ,if anything ,can be done to save the sport/Industry in the North ?

I have never said I had an answer

Perhaps there is no answer .... now

The ATC should have never been so staunch on Friday nights, claiming that it was "their "night

What it has done is create dual meetings with Addington on Friday nights which has cannabiised the ATC TAB turnover which hurts all of us

It may well be too late to resurrect Saturday nights now, people's habits are too entrenched (for example when they trialled some Saturday nights even I forgot the races were on)

A start would be no double ups in the North ie no Cambridge on Thursdays and ATC on Fridays

 

 

 

[Mikie 326]

1 hour ago, Ohokaman said:

That’s half the problem Mikie, look at the export stats for Feb- March….over 50 horses gone to Australia.

https://infohorse.hrnz.co.nz/datahrs/statistics/exportedhorses.htm

OK Oholaman, you've identified a problem

Kudos

Now give us a succinct answer, not just "the handicapping system needs changing"

Tell us how

No airy fairy stuff like "we must have like with like", a proper answer of what exact changes are needed

Isn't part of the problem our size? By that I mean you get a nice horse that heads to the top grades and oopsie, you are up against Self Assured who's pretty damn good

Whereas in Aussie you can pick a State to race the top ones in, and some State's top ones aren't as good as other State's top ones ie the old saying, half the racings in the placing. I would have hated to be training under this Ratings system (and I'm neither knocking it or applauding it) as there's no "placing" your horses anymore

I'm damn suspicious of some of the times our mid range NZ horses are running in Aussie as well but that's a seperate issue

No one has come on here and advised what any changes would do

If you run 500 races and Blanch wins 100, Reidman wins 100, BP wins 100 and the other 200 are shared equally between 20 trainers at , say, 10 each then I'd suggest that Blanch, Reidman and BP would be pretty happy

You change the system so they win only 60 each, and another trainer wins 120 instead of 10 and who's happy?

When they changed to the Rating system how many older horses that had won a few races but had had a lot of starts dropped back and won a few races? One CD trainer in particular whose name escapes me but he has a great accent had 2 or 3 horses in that category and he cleaned up for a season or 2. Those wins came at the expense of someone else. All it did was shift the happiness

I digress now but I remember CJButler had a horse who could run a little bit. He used to go to Palmy and win, then he would head back up North and start at every meeting to run his points off, then back to Palmy to win again. It wasn't a bad lark as back then the ATC were paying appearance money so he was never out of pocket

I am fearful that it's (nearly) too late to save Auckland racing

As for as the comment that there is a bright new hierarchy ... who was there when the Apartment f-up started?

 

[tasman man 742]

The late Colin Butler's horse was Charlemagne who did well at a few Jewels meetings early on then raced for 9 full seasons and won over $275k with 16 wins.

Moment of Truth raced 11 full seasons for 29 wins and $270k.

Danke had 300 starts in both Islands.

Dr Luk Chin has a resilient trotter racking up the starts currently.

Australia has a lot of these durable warhorses who , as you say , are able to find suitable races across different states.