Baz (NZ) 1,719 Report post Posted January 3, 2022 Interesting!...what do our racing participants make of these proposals ? dec21-training-and-licensing-consultation-paper.pdf meomy 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Bidlake 759 Report post Posted January 3, 2022 Page 3, forth row down is the only issue that really needs addressing. Bimbo 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
We're Doomed 4,824 Report post Posted January 3, 2022 All well and good comparing us to Victoria when it suits them, but it's a pity they don't seem to understand that these highly trained and regulated NZ trainers go out and race for $12,000 whereas their Victorian counterparts go out and race for $100,000. Puts a different perspective on things. The only areas in which NZ and Victoria compare closely are the amount of regulation and the overall administration costs. Aaron Bidlake, Baz (NZ) and Huey 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stodge 1,912 Report post Posted January 3, 2022 I note the comparisons to Ireland which would seem a better parallel than Australia in terms of population. Ireland punches above its weight in the relationship with the UK in terms of the quality of the competition. It's not so much the source of horses, jockeys and stable staff it once was but it's still important. If I were NZTR I'd be looking at how Ireland operates. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
We're Doomed 4,824 Report post Posted January 3, 2022 1 minute ago, stodge said: I note the comparisons to Ireland which would seem a better parallel than Australia in terms of population. Ireland punches above its weight in the relationship with the UK in terms of the quality of the competition. It's not so much the source of horses, jockeys and stable staff it once was but it's still important. If I were NZTR I'd be looking at how Ireland operates. They wouldn't be opposed to that. I'm sure a fact finding trip to Ireland appeals. Huey, meomy, Aaron Bidlake and 1 other 1 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stodge 1,912 Report post Posted January 3, 2022 2 minutes ago, We're Doomed said: They wouldn't be opposed to that. I'm sure a fact finding trip to Ireland appeals. I presume this is more a comment along the lines of "any excuse for NZTR to waste more public money". Fair enough - there's plenty of information on Ireland in the report. The two key differences between NZ and Ireland are first in Ireland they race for about double the NZ prize money (and that's considered poor by international standards) and the size of the horse population which is much larger in Ireland at 7,392. That means bigger fields - 28+ in big handicaps and novice hurdles not unknown so it's even tougher to win when there are more rivals than races with smaller fields. meomy 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berri 2,131 Report post Posted January 3, 2022 I simply don't get what these guys are trying to promote. The last line in this scares the crap out of me We are at the moment experiencing a serious problem with racing stakes and costs to owners....in fact costs to the entire industry because any small stakes gains that we may have experienced over the past 24 months have been eaten up by inflation and the inability to find good staff. So I'd really like to know who the promoter of this initiative is because on the list of have to do's, this would be a "I'd like to do when the time is right". The question of education is an important feature of improving the industry but without the right platform, all you will do is breed another bureaucracy that will cost more and piss more people off. I don't think I have seen many of these NZTR sponsored consultation papers, and I would have thought there are far more important ones to be publishing before this one, so who ever is in charge of this one has got the degree of necessity, precedence and timing horribly wrong. I'd have thought that consultation papers on sponsorship, affiliate programs to support getting racing information into the community and betting was the most important, yet I have never seen anything on these most important matters. I was very recently in Coopers Beach, up north. Had to drive to Keri Keri (58km) to get a Raceform. You might say that I should be looking at these things on line but that's not the way my team like looking at the form, the breeding and the process of entertainment. Lying on the beach with a laptop doesn't do it for me. We're Doomed, Aaron Bidlake, Insider and 6 others 7 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whyisit 227 Report post Posted January 3, 2022 57 minutes ago, Berri said: I simply don't get what these guys are trying to promote. The last line in this scares the crap out of me This should scare the shit out you to Berri Sound in principle but not if abused We have had the rationalisation of Racecourse Venues now it the turn of the trainers. easy to abuse if you want a course to close remove its income. just continue to squeeze the life out of the industry CPD Development Introduction of continuing professional development programmes Every licenceholder will need to complete a certain level of continuing professional development, which may include performance standards, every year to be eligible to renew their licence. In setting CPD requirements NZTR will take into account industry experience and knowledge and, where appropriate, will recognize that participants can identify their own learning needs. It is intended that CPD will be introduced in stages over the next three years. We're Doomed, Pam Robson and dock leaf 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Bidlake 759 Report post Posted January 3, 2022 3 hours ago, Berri said: I simply don't get what these guys are trying to promote. The last line in this scares the crap out of me Scares me as well. As a small player who does do things on a low cost model because I do everything but ride them myself I guess I'd be gone. I keep costs down a bit because I crush own oats and cut my own chaff, all to make it affordable to some owners who would have no chance of affording a horse in a bigger stable. I'd say 95 percent of the people I have got involved in ownership through syndicates would not be involved at all if I hadn't have chased them,cricket and rugby mates etc, yeah some are only small percent owners but from these guys who knows who might win lotto or have a wealthy uncle leave them money and want to get involved in a bigger way in the future. Our industry is losing people by the day,closing racing in regions like East Coast ect those areas will be lost forever and no one will be following racing in five years in those regions the last thing we need is to be doing is killing off trainers who are still getting new people involved. L.J.Shannon, Baz (NZ), Tauhei Notts and 14 others 12 5 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby3051 10,695 Report post Posted January 3, 2022 And why is it so wrong if some can do it a little cheaper than others...if they have had the experience to be a trainer and can do it cheaper why should they be forced out...I for one do look at the costs when looking for a trainer the returns are miserly so every cent saved is a money in my pocket. I dont buy expensive horses and the returns are not there to warrant it in my opinion so yes I agree we should be encouraging more to get involved not chasing them out. This has never been the NZ way why has it now turned down this track??? Baz (NZ), Leggy, We're Doomed and 6 others 8 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littletramp 381 Report post Posted January 3, 2022 This looks like a collection of corporate speak, academic cliches & babble with that pidgin English on the front page being the early giveaway. Some one has written this simply to impress someone else higher up the ladder, to suggest that positive action is underway, to either secure funding going forward, or to fulfill some aspirational goal written on a Wellington whiteboard. The document gives the required nod to the maori community, but not included much yet on the LGBT outfit. Going to be interesting to see if they can mandate the trainers, median age is stated to be 57 yrs (really?), to bow to having at least 1 transsexual track rider. These should be compulsory where the trackwork requires riders to be able to go both ways? Like all else this govt touches at the moment, it is simply a foul wind passing through & will lead nowhere - don't panic. ivanthegreat, dock leaf, Pam Robson and 5 others 4 1 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contentious 570 Report post Posted January 4, 2022 1 hour ago, Littletramp said: . Some one has written this simply to impress someone else higher up the ladder, That someone and also the someone higher up the ladder should do something positive for the industry - like getting in a car from Petone office and driving up to Trentham and filling in all the hoof marks on the course proper that were obvious at the abandoned December meeting. Pam Robson, Tauhei Notts, Baz (NZ) and 1 other 2 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
We're Doomed 4,824 Report post Posted January 4, 2022 It is incredible that a substantial, nationwide, long established, industry has been captured by an ideologically driven minority with no obvious industry knowledge that are able to push through extreme structural changes virtually without question and without any fear of consequences. Hard to think of anything comparable really. Baz (NZ), Insider, Huey and 4 others 7 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meomy 971 Report post Posted January 4, 2022 On 1/3/2022 at 8:22 PM, We're Doomed said: All well and good comparing us to Victoria when it suits them, but it's a pity they don't seem to understand that these highly trained and regulated NZ trainers go out and race for $12,000 whereas their Victorian counterparts go out and race for $100,000. Puts a different perspective on things. The only areas in which NZ and Victoria compare closely are the amount of regulation and the overall administration costs. And bloody harsh Lockdowns that have screwed over us Racing folk and livelihoods Baz (NZ) 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whyisit 227 Report post Posted January 4, 2022 14 hours ago, Berri said: I simply don't get what these guys are trying to promote. The last line in this scares the crap out of me . THE SQUEEZE IS ON Paragraphs 2 and 3 hint of CLASSISM further entrenched by the following proposed rule changes which will impact on both Class B (permit to train)those wishing or forced to drop down under CPD to Owner Trainer Licence and existing Owner Trainers. EXISTING RULE {emphasis bold and underlined my highlights) 305 (1) A Class C trainer’s licence may be issued to a person who: (a) trains: (i) only horses solely owned or leased to him; and (ii) only horses in respect of which he has an Ownership interest of at least 10% with the balance being owned by one or more Near Relatives; and (iii) no more than two horses in respect of which he has an Ownership interest of at least 50%; and (b) is competent to train horses; and (c) owns or occupies an appropriate Trainer’s Premises; and (d) is financially sound and of good character. NEW PROPOSED DRAFT RULE OWNER TRAINER LICENCE 307 An Owner Trainer Licence may only be granted to a person who meets the criteria for the issue of an Owner Trainer Licence as set out in a Licensing Policy issued under Rule 303. 308 An Owner Trainer may: (1) train, control and care for horses which are owned by the Owner Trainer, or in which the Owner Trainer has an Ownership interest of at least 60% with the balance being owned by one or more Near Relative(s); (2) care for a horse at a Race Meeting which is trained by another Trainer with that Trainer’s consent, if a Stipendiary Steward has been notified not less than 1 hour before the start of the Race Meeting; (3) employ: (a) Stablehands; (b) Slow Work Riders; and (c) Fast Work Riders. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tauhei Notts 1,403 Report post Posted January 4, 2022 Thank you Baz for bringing this matter to our attention. I have spent the past two days worrying about it. This seems to me to be a preposterous expense to put on our trainers. I have done accounting work for trainers in the past and the thing that I noticed was that they needed the commission on sales out of their stables to achieve a minimum working wage. In short, it is a tough lifestyle. And how fast the economic circumstances have changed. In the 1985-86 season our filly did okay. She won a group 2 race. The trainer's stakes percentages exceeded the trainer's fees on that filly for the season. Nowadays for that to happen the filly would have needed to win TWO group one races. Stakes percentages are not as significant as they were 35 years ago. There is an awful sentence in the report that is really troubling me. I am not as thick as pig shit, as I have a knowledge of binomial theorem, a smattering of French and Greek, real good mental arithmetic skills and a sound knowledge of N.Z. geography; BUT; "High performing horse trainers will no longer have to compete against those who have a lower cost operating model." WTF does that mean? That seems spooky to me. Memphis3, L.J.Shannon, dock leaf and 5 others 6 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
We're Doomed 4,824 Report post Posted January 4, 2022 57 minutes ago, Tauhei Notts said: There is an awful sentence in the report that is really troubling me. I am not as thick as pig shit, as I have a knowledge of binomial theorem, a smattering of French and Greek, real good mental arithmetic skills and a sound knowledge of N.Z. geography; BUT; "High performing horse trainers will no longer have to compete against those who have a lower cost operating model." WTF does that mean? That seems spooky to me. I can only assume that all racing will ultimately be centred on Ellerslie and the Cambridge AWT and only 10 or 12 "high performing" trainers will be licenced to operate. And good to know about the binominal theorem. The rest of us will certainly know never to argue with you in about that. Whyisit and dock leaf 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairdinkum 0 Report post Posted January 4, 2022 I think the Commerce Commission would be very interested in that line from the consultation paper. "High performing trainers (How is a high performing trainer identified??) will no longer have to compete against those who have a lower cost operating model". It would seem that NZTR is using its powers to regulate to lessen competition in the sport/industry and deliberately so. In some jurisdictions this is a gaolable offence. In effect what NZTR is saying is that if we make it so expensive for a trainer to train we will get rid of the bottom dwellers - like this is their policy. The corollary being that big trainers working on the syndication model can just increase the fees to compensate for the extra costs and pass it on to the syndicates. For everyone else it's just another lump of costs that ordinary owners will end up wearing. So while we are actively working to increase stakes money with one hand they will be taking away with the other. Another point is the lack of research and back-up statistics and sensitivity analysis on any - in fact ALL - of these "revitalisation" initiatives. NZTR have in no way demonstrated how all this works for the benefit of the industry as a whole and not just the big end of town. They say we all have a place in the industry its just that for some that place will be the TAB tote queue. Our industry "leaders" need to be reigned in big time - and just concentrate on ensuring race day operations across the country are carried out safely/effectively and efficiently. I guarantee you when it becomes clearly obvious that all this hype about sustainable future and revitalisation has done nothing for the industry these so-called leaders will be long gone and sucking on another tit somewhere else. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contentious 570 Report post Posted January 5, 2022 One can only hope that those that are left in the industry can still prop up the wages for those that sit in Petone Baz (NZ) 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
We're Doomed 4,824 Report post Posted January 5, 2022 15 minutes ago, Contentious said: One can only hope that those that are left in the industry can still prop up the wages for those that sit in Petone They are there for a good time, not a long time. When they run NZ Racing into the ground they will head off somewhere else. hedley, Baz (NZ) and Huey 2 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurnyTom 1,519 Report post Posted January 5, 2022 Liken it to trying to introduce a Hong Kong regimented regime into picnic racing in outback Australia. Just won't stand Huey, We're Doomed and Baz (NZ) 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contentious 570 Report post Posted January 5, 2022 The more I look at this - the more I am inclined to think it was written by the same plonker that proposed a cycle lane attached to the Auckland harbour bridge! We're Doomed, Baz (NZ) and chevy86 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baz (NZ) 1,719 Report post Posted January 5, 2022 24 minutes ago, Contentious said: The more I look at this - the more I am inclined to think it was written by the same plonker that proposed a cycle lane attached to the Auckland harbour bridge! Certainly looks like the author is from the LABOUR /GREEN communist coalition! Ardern has so many spin doctors she has obviously lent one to NZ Racing for the summer break ! chevy86, We're Doomed, dock leaf and 1 other 4 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tripple alliance 1,007 Report post Posted January 5, 2022 You are all missing the really troubling stuff . Read the 2nd part , Proposed policy wording , plenty there to sweat about . Here's a starter , (c) Use of training venues: The Trainer is permitted to conduct trackwork only at race clubs/venues where the trainer has permission of the club/venue . (beaches ) . Minimum runners and winners: To be eligible for renewal of the licence, the Trainer is required to have a minimum of the following per racing season: [1] starters in New Zealand; or (ii) [1] winners in New Zealand . We also have 6, SLOW WORK RIDER , 7, FAST WORK RIDER LICENCE , Jump riders , Minimum Riding Requirements: Unless in circumstances deemed appropriate by NZTR, in its discretion, such as sickness or injury, where a pro-rata number may be applied, to be eligible for renewal of the Licence, the Jumps Rider must have achieved the following each season: (i) [10] jumps race rides in New Zealand; or (ii) [1] jumps race winner in New Zealand. SO if you don't have 10 rides in the previous season your out . Have a study , plenty of dangerous stuff here . Aaron Bidlake, Huey and Baz (NZ) 2 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohokaman 5,763 Report post Posted January 5, 2022 On 1/4/2022 at 7:18 AM, Berri said: I simply don't get what these guys are trying to promote. The last line in this scares the crap out of me We are at the moment experiencing a serious problem with racing stakes and costs to owners....in fact costs to the entire industry because any small stakes gains that we may have experienced over the past 24 months have been eaten up by inflation and the inability to find good staff. So I'd really like to know who the promoter of this initiative is because on the list of have to do's, this would be a "I'd like to do when the time is right". The question of education is an important feature of improving the industry but without the right platform, all you will do is breed another bureaucracy that will cost more and piss more people off. I don't think I have seen many of these NZTR sponsored consultation papers, and I would have thought there are far more important ones to be publishing before this one, so who ever is in charge of this one has got the degree of necessity, precedence and timing horribly wrong. I'd have thought that consultation papers on sponsorship, affiliate programs to support getting racing information into the community and betting was the most important, yet I have never seen anything on these most important matters. I was very recently in Coopers Beach, up north. Had to drive to Keri Keri (58km) to get a Raceform. You might say that I should be looking at these things on line but that's not the way my team like looking at the form, the breeding and the process of entertainment. Lying on the beach with a laptop doesn't do it for me. Should have given us a bell Berri…..the place is packed with visitors, not a car park anywhere….. You do know raceforms ( colour and b&w ) can be printed out from the TAB website…..the local lotto shop would have done it for you. ?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...