john legend 735 Report post Posted December 22, 2021 So a huge race for the wealthy persons of racing to Cambridge 2022. Big deal but any good for the majority of owners,trainers/drivers who wont be risking $75000 to get a start ( now called slot !) We may need big carrots to aim at but when this has been seen as a replacement for the developing excitement of the Jewels day it does not appeal. The Jewels gave everyone an opportunity to get a start by earning money through the season and was in effect a championship in each section of harness racing.Sometimes to get an historic raceday (eg Jewels Day)it takes years of running the same format to get everyone excited. sim to Cup day or overseas say the racing triple crown in usa. Sure some series like the interdoms need a bit of reviving to retain their relevance but cannot see a one off race even for 1 mill. being of any significance for harness Racing. JJ Flash and ivanthegreat 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tasman man 742 Report post Posted December 22, 2021 It's the wealthy people who buy the slots ,and they buy it for 3 years , then they have to negotiate with Owners to get a horse to race in it for them . A battling owner therefore can enter the race for free and then negotiate how he will share the stake won with the slot owner....new owners will emerge for the day ! Because of the timing of the event on Calendar , it will probably be attractive to some top Aussie horses as well ,as it sits well with other rich NZ races on new calendar...eg the Auckland Cup in May. It should create a widely publicised high profile race. Most of stake is paid by the Slot owners ...10 x $75 k Puts a bit of extra interest into the Sales here ,maybe improves the retention of more of our best horses. The Jewels was good but was losing a bit of gloss , and the funding was tough on the Industry.In the early years the pokies paid a lot of stakes but that began to fade hence the stakes dropped significantly. With preferential draws it may entice the best 3 year olds to have a crack at older horses. Choosing Cambridge as host seems debatable , but the calendar for April/May has the top horses in North at that time. The Interdoms maybe has lost its gloss....3 or 4 races a bit tough ,and the stakes overall are dwarfed by these other new ideas ! JJ Flash and Thejanitor 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
john legend 735 Report post Posted December 22, 2021 Like your confidence T Man, but have major doubts as to its success. the jewels were going well with 2 smaller clubs enjoying the big boost in interest each 2nd year. Until the "clever" people decided AK and Addington could bid for the event !.even the original clubs could bid. What a farce. It is akin to the ruthless management ploy of dismissing employees by say their jobs have been disestablished but of course they can put in an application for the few new jobs !!! still its Christmas and I must not get wound up and wish all Harness Racing enthusiasts all the best and great success for the year ahead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eljay 1,711 Report post Posted December 22, 2021 Yes John - let's all agree to agree with you and then quietly forget it as a bad dream. Unless you have a horse thats in a "top" stable or has a special diet! john legend 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eljay 1,711 Report post Posted December 22, 2021 A p.s. thought - if they get (say) 3 noms would they run it as a full tote race or a N.T. before the amateurs race?? tasman man and john legend 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Piper 404 Report post Posted December 23, 2021 The series is modelled like the Everest in Aussie. It won't Work well here as we ain't funded like the Aussies , which has some government funding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Piper 404 Report post Posted December 23, 2021 5 minutes ago, 2Piper said: The series is modelled like the Everest in Aussie. It won't Work well here as we ain't funded like the Aussies , which has some government funding Ps. I would not want to be spending my NZ Derby winnings, or NZ FFA winning on a slot. If the Sites Stakes etc money is split between two camps it would not be frugal to do also. Also with Allstars dominance going forward , how would you select firstly the right horse and have other horses owners from the stable getting no chance having a runner ( based on one slot per trainer). Diluted field ?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tasman man 742 Report post Posted December 23, 2021 2 hours ago, 2Piper said: Ps. I would not want to be spending my NZ Derby winnings, or NZ FFA winning on a slot. If the Sites Stakes etc money is split between two camps it would not be frugal to do also. Also with Allstars dominance going forward , how would you select firstly the right horse and have other horses owners from the stable getting no chance having a runner ( based on one slot per trainer). Diluted field ?? They seem to be wanting to attract 'new' investors into the event .....as in Businesses who can claim it on their taxes. The expression of Interest asks how the slot holder can advertise and leverage their involvement. So an owner of a good horse with Group 1 winnings could enter the race with NO investment in a slot ! In fact owners of Group 1 winners probably would not buy a slot cos its a 3 x year commitment ! Have you seen the small print as in rules and regulations eg.How the preferential draw works and is it limited to 1 horse per trainer. Is this a fact? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsvman 294 Report post Posted December 23, 2021 Cambridge should worry more about raising the poor stake levels for the rest of the year than throwing money to a once a season race. There stakes are woeful and have always been the lowest around in the north for ages. Facilities are run down and even those they splashed a lock of paint around a few things it’s a disgrace the condition Of the stalls and stabling area JTeaz and tasman man 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Piper 404 Report post Posted December 23, 2021 14 hours ago, tasman man said: They seem to be wanting to attract 'new' investors into the event .....as in Businesses who can claim it on their taxes. The expression of Interest asks how the slot holder can advertise and leverage their involvement. So an owner of a good horse with Group 1 winnings could enter the race with NO investment in a slot ! In fact owners of Group 1 winners probably would not buy a slot cos its a 3 x year commitment ! Have you seen the small print as in rules and regulations eg.How the preferential draw works and is it limited to 1 horse per trainer. Is this a fact? i don't know whether it is one trainer per slot, just know that is how it has worked in Australia . As you are saying in your post it is apparently open to businesses to purchase slots , with no alliegence to a particular horse or trainer. Having to negotiate terms with a trainer and owner (and getting a driver you want ) for a race in Cambridge won't be easy . to be blunt trainers could end up with conflicts of interest. Also the horse you have put faith into may not be available for what ever reason close to the race and having to scramble for a substitute. Gather the Driver and Trainer percentages are still in play here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tasman man 742 Report post Posted December 24, 2021 3 hours ago, 2Piper said: i don't know whether it is one trainer per slot, just know that is how it has worked in Australia . As you are saying in your post it is apparently open to businesses to purchase slots , with no alliegence to a particular horse or trainer. Having to negotiate terms with a trainer and owner (and getting a driver you want ) for a race in Cambridge won't be easy . to be blunt trainers could end up with conflicts of interest. Also the horse you have put faith into may not be available for what ever reason close to the race and having to scramble for a substitute. Gather the Driver and Trainer percentages are still in play here. As I suspected Piper. You posting on a subject you know little about.....in NZ we call that 'talking thru a hole in one's arse '. NZ's biggest challenge in this initially will be a lack of depth/numbers of top horses who could challenge to win the race...in year 1 ! I guess this is why it is a preferential drawer to add incentive for top 3 year olds to enter. Adding this to the calendar could slow down the departure of top horses to Australia ....the total prize pool in NZ looking more attractive. Seems likely that the NZ calendar will be attractive to some top Aussies.They already asked some whether it interests them and are taking enquiries to gauge NZ enthusiasm.. The Race has already had more publicity that most NZ races ever get .....if it not popular then it could be tweaked or even discontinued . Why is it not worth a shot to help NZ Harness regain some lost relevance. JJ Flash and Thejanitor 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
john legend 735 Report post Posted December 25, 2021 It maybe "worth a shot" T man but I hope due diligence has been done to contact the wealthy to see who is willing to front up ...money and horses. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tasman man 742 Report post Posted December 25, 2021 1 hour ago, john legend said: It maybe "worth a shot" T man but I hope due diligence has been done to contact the wealthy to see who is willing to front up ...money and horses. I just read what they have released and wonder why full conditions not decided on yet. But expressions of interest are being canvassed for and Slot Applications need to be in by 31 January so they will know by then how many keen on a slot. They expecting a couple of Aussies and one assumes the top current 3 or 4 aged pacers plus the top 3 yr olds and top 2 yr old will have horses keen to race for the big stakes this year , with the next two years in mind as well ! Then the top sellers/buyers at sales likely slot investors IMO. If little interest apparent by January 31 then whole thing can be reviewed . Harness seems to need a few things from outside the box , even at the elite level.. john legend 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navitas 108 Report post Posted December 25, 2021 Sounds like the rich getting richer, while the battling breeders, owners & trainers continue to get the crumbs. Shouldn't be difficult to spot the conflicts of interest here JJ Flash, Thejanitor and JTeaz 1 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJ Flash 2,114 Report post Posted December 25, 2021 Very successful overseas and if well executed here then.its a great piece of work. The comments by Navitas is why the game is not on.a forward plain. Stop whinging about everything and get involved like sucessful.people do . Let's make a potential list that cafers think mighr be prepared to buy a slot. I'll kick.it off P Vela J Feiss The Kennards R Dunn M House Who else?? Thejanitor 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navitas 108 Report post Posted December 25, 2021 30 minutes ago, JJ Flash said: Very successful overseas and if well executed here then.its a great piece of work. The comments by Navitas is why the game is not on.a forward plain. Stop whinging about everything and get involved like sucessful.people do . Let's make a potential list that cafers think mighr be prepared to buy a slot. I'll kick.it off P Vela J Feiss The Kennards R Dunn M House Who else?? JJ, perhaps you didn't read my previous post properly, or maybe I didn't phrase it correctly, but the names you've listed highlight my concerns. BTW, I'm not against improving the industry, but grass roots always seems to be last cab off the ramp. I do however take extreme offence to you calling my comments whinging and telling me to get involved. Briefly, I have 2 broodmares, both confirmed in foal again this season, with foals at foot. 2 yearlings in work at Auckland and a qualified 2 year old in Canterbury. I had a 3 year old drop dead in the paddock & a 3 year old filly that wasn't any good, but the years of work & investment to get them both to that stage is not insignificant. I am involved as a hobby breeder/ owner & anytime you want to pay my monthly accounts for my horses, feel free. Thejanitor, mikenz, john legend and 1 other 4 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
john legend 735 Report post Posted December 25, 2021 I have read info released so far A commitment is sought for 3 years at 75000 per year. Ihave been in business and in these strange times would be risky for long term investment. I hope I am not considered a whinger Like Navitas have bred and raced many with first winner 1970. and still have a"" flying" 2 year old at present I have forced a club to at least try a passing lane and despite whingers saying it will be a disaster it has improved harness racing at least in the punters eyes. trainer bonus another innovation was up to 75000 when last raced for all forced on the soothsayers.also got club to abandon entry fees as did not cover wages ...etc, etc. so I have battled whingers over say last 40 years and believed a sexed up Jewels could have survived and flourished. Like Ak thinking it was easy to be a major developer and great stakes would come ,I think the Race has many fishooks that could prove costly for the industry and I just hope I am proved wrong. JJ Flash 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevy86 2,681 Report post Posted December 25, 2021 2 hours ago, JJ Flash said: Let's make a potential list that cafers think mighr be prepared to buy a slot. I'll kick.it off P Vela J Feiss The Kennards R Dunn M House Who else?? Idolmite no doubt john legend and JJ Flash 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nelli 426 Report post Posted December 26, 2021 If Cambridge wants to run what is effectively a sweepstake race for wealthy people to show as my husband says "how high they can piss" good on them. What gets me is that a club known for its poor stakes and dwindling reserves is putting $150K of its own money into it and the only owners that will benefit are the lucky/wealthy few who already have the top handful of pacers. I loved the Jewels concept which created increasing interest as the season progressed, included horses of both gaits, and enabled a diverse range of owners to have a real chance of running for good money. As a trotting owner/breeder The Race will be of almost zero interest to me, and if the accompanying card on the day of the Race are the usual $9K, then one could see why northern NI owners could get disillusioned even further. Navitas, JJ Flash, Thejanitor and 2 others 2 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tasman man 742 Report post Posted December 26, 2021 6 hours ago, Nelli said: If Cambridge wants to run what is effectively a sweepstake race for wealthy people to show as my husband says "how high they can piss" good on them. What gets me is that a club known for its poor stakes and dwindling reserves is putting $150K of its own money into it and the only owners that will benefit are the lucky/wealthy few who already have the top handful of pacers. I loved the Jewels concept which created increasing interest as the season progressed, included horses of both gaits, and enabled a diverse range of owners to have a real chance of running for good money. As a trotting owner/breeder The Race will be of almost zero interest to me, and if the accompanying card on the day of the Race are the usual $9K, then one could see why northern NI owners could get disillusioned even further. Fair point about the trotters ,who up North in recent years have represented a higher % of horses racing than previously. I guess the fact that overall trotting numbers are still in the minority plus betting numbers per race generally much lower !. Optimistically ,there is nothing to to say ,should this concept prove successful then a race for Trotters is introduced as well.. Shame to read the vitriol toward Cambridge.......that usually reserved for Addington and Alexandra Park. The Jewels was losing a bit of gloss...certainly wasn't slowing the export sale of our talented horses AND it was largely funded by the sad and desperate folk of poor areas of New Zealand feeding Pokie machines. And the stakes offered had dropped significantly....not a good sign. Anyone or group can apply to buy a slot...get amongst it Nellie.......let's see how high you can piss ! JJ Flash and Value Bell 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJ Flash 2,114 Report post Posted December 26, 2021 On 12/26/2021 at 10:00 AM, Navitas said: BTW, I'm not against improving the industry, but grass roots always seems to be last cab off the ramp. And rightly so. Bottom dwellers, many of whom are owned/trained by "grass rooters" race for poor stakes because they are poor horses. The amateur way Harness is run both at top and bottom levels has resulted in its massive decline. If you want an example of what i'm on about the chair was at pains recently to deride the lack of export earnings in Harness and thus its future funding. Fair enough and well spotted albeit that someone should have seen it 20 years ago. So, what do HRNZ do- , race on Saturdays when both Ozzie racing channels are chocker with local content and no NZ race is ever shown With the exception of The Jewels there has been no innovation in harness this century. As Tasman Man has noted, the Jewels concept was in decline and sending it to Addington was a massive mistake for all parties. I note that you also use the word "Hobby" in your post. That's great but it would seem that those who use professional trainers and yearling selectors seem to be the most successful and that appears to be a constant sense of irritation to many in harness. Perhaps those types should follow the old adage " if you cant beat em , join em" rather than continually moaning about their lot Just my thoughts Thejanitor 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
We're Doomed 4,824 Report post Posted December 27, 2021 I had never heard about this idea until I saw it mentioned here just now. I have just checked the HRNZ website and I see there is a poorly written article about it. I suppose they need to be given some credit for making an effort, but it might struggle to gain much public interest. I suppose they have done some research to determine if they will be able to sell the 10 slots. Doesn't seem like much of an investment to me. If a slot holder ends up with the horse that runs second they will still lose money. At least with the Jewels there was interest created for all the different age group categories for both trotters and pacers. The club, or the rest of the industry, will be up for quite a bit of money to boost the rest of the card. You can't have a $900,000 race and the other races all worth about $10,000. The real money is made on the betting on a solid supporting card, so they will need at least some $50,000 trots and age group races. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navitas 108 Report post Posted December 27, 2021 4 hours ago, JJ Flash said: 4 hours ago, JJ Flash said: I note that you also use the word "Hobby" in your post. That's great but it would seem that those who use professional trainers and yearling selectors seem to be the most successful and that appears to be a constant sense of irritation to many in harness. Perhaps those types should follow the old adage " if you cant beat em , join em" rather than continually moaning about their lot Wow, so now I'm not only a whinger, but a moaner as well. Sorry JJ, but I'll continue to speak my mind on topics I feel passionately about!!! But back to the topic of this thread & my original argument; If you & your ilk believe a race worth $1 million, where half the field looses money after "buying a slot", as apposed to The Jewels, is better for the industry, good luck to you, I don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thejanitor 1,206 Report post Posted December 27, 2021 On 12/26/2021 at 9:30 AM, JJ Flash said: Very successful overseas and if well executed here then.its a great piece of work. The comments by Navitas is why the game is not on.a forward plain. Stop whinging about everything and get involved like sucessful.people do . Let's make a potential list that cafers think mighr be prepared to buy a slot. I'll kick.it off P Vela J Feiss The Kennards R Dunn M House Who else?? Trevor Casey JJ Flash 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJ Flash 2,114 Report post Posted December 27, 2021 1 hour ago, Navitas said: You seem to be knit picking a bit old son which you are perfectly entitled to do. I did it myself earlier by ending with "Just my Thoughts" Sorry to point it out but you are moaning about the race and its potential outcome for those as you put it at the expense of " grass roots players." t the contrary its the "slot holders" who are taking all the risks" you also asserted earlier that On 12/26/2021 at 8:35 AM, Navitas said: Sounds like the rich getting richer, while the battling breeders, owners & trainers continue to get the crumbs. Shouldn't be difficult to spot the conflicts of interest here If the Race is worth 750K the winning trainer/driver will be getting 10% and 5% respectively as will place getters. Also as it stands 10 slot holders will pay 75K so the race costs HRNZ nothing. As for Conflicts of interest you have lost me. Chris Waller who has won The Everest twice has thousands of owners/horses yet it is up to slot holders/owners to do a deal that suits both parties. Other big stables have never won it, eg Godolphin Might i add i'm not having ago at you Navitas- just opening a discussion. Thejanitor 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...