poundforpound

Isn’t this a manifestation of a broken handicapping model ?

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Surely we should be concerned when our precious assets are being sent abroad because they can’t compete under our handicapping model ?

We can’t make money out of them if they’re in Australia 

 

South Island stars on the radar of Aussie trainers and buyers


https://www.tdnausnz.com.au/edition/2021-12-15/south-island-stars-on-the-radar-of-aussie-trainers-and-buyers?fbclid=IwAR3irKsHeE0Ve9QbYNXpDAODWowwEik4xGmn4r6h1xURYUcK9jSkCIrM9pA

 

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Why wouldn't anyone rush to send a horse to Oz ...its a no brainer...race for peanuts here and race for up to 100K for just a normal Saturday race...hell even country meetings on the weekend in Vic race for more than Te Rapa is running for this Saturday and a bloody sight easier to win.

The handicapper here is overworked and totally inflexible...unless you are his mate maybe 😜.

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1 hour ago, We're Doomed said:

Is it really the handicappers fault? I would have thought it was a just a lack of depth in our racing. Take the Manawatu Cup for instance, only two horses rated higher than 87. What could you do differently to make that a better field. Last week's Waikato Cup was similar.

Ask the owners of Grey Way….he races successfully in NZ for. 50+ wins….where would he sit in the current handicapping model ?

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3 minutes ago, poundforpound said:

Ask the owners of Grey Way….he races successfully in NZ for. 50+ wins….where would he sit in the current handicapping model ?

He carried the weight when the handicapping model made that a real difference.

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 Carrying 60.5 when we had real handicappers and real handicaps.

Skelton swears he can point to the blade of home straight grass when he told Grey Way, "No, there's no way through there," and Grey Way said, "Yes there is."

"He just took charge of me. I've never had a horse do that before or since.

"He said, 'To hell with this, we're going to win.' There was no gap there, but he made one."

These weren't brumbies he was running past either.

Kiwi Can, Tudor Light, Vice Regal, Shifnal's Pride and Patronise were in that wall of horses and each one would be a group one winner in New Zealand these days.

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I remember Grey Way beating Gretna Green in one of his last wins giving her about 13kgs, and several similar efforts. Certainly we won't see his like again. But where is the current problem? Are the top weights/best horses being weighted out of it, or are light weights not getting enough encouragement? Even the SI in those days had a bit of depth. How would people weight the Manawatu Cup, for instance, differently?

I haven't been a big fan of the mucking around with races like the Telegraph. It doesn't seem to have done them any good. Certainly those types of races aren't nearly as competitive as they used to be.

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5 hours ago, We're Doomed said:

I remember Grey Way beating Gretna Green in one of his last wins giving her about 13kgs, and several similar efforts. Certainly we won't see his like again. But where is the current problem? Are the top weights/best horses being weighted out of it, or are light weights not getting enough encouragement? Even the SI in those days had a bit of depth. How would people weight the Manawatu Cup, for instance, differently?

I haven't been a big fan of the mucking around with races like the Telegraph. It doesn't seem to have done them any good. Certainly those types of races aren't nearly as competitive as they used to be.

Is the Manawatu Cup a handicap in the true sense of the word? I don't think so. 6kg weight spread top to bottom with 2/3 of the field jammed up on the minimum. You probably have the records in your library WD. Go back and look at a Manawatu Cup in the 60s/70s when it was a handicap and let us know what the weight spread was.

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this is what happens when you abolish the rating 85 and 90 races

Since Covid when these races were abolished I would estimate that 50 - 100 of these races haven't occurred.....which means horses haven't progressed into the 80's.....and this would have created the Spread

Most provincial Cups will now feature horses in their 70's......because to progress beyond that rating they need to win or place in Black Type

In a couple of years it will be much worse...a logjam in the 70's

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8 hours ago, Leggy said:

Is the Manawatu Cup a handicap in the true sense of the word? I don't think so. 6kg weight spread top to bottom with 2/3 of the field jammed up on the minimum. You probably have the records in your library WD. Go back and look at a Manawatu Cup in the 60s/70s when it was a handicap and let us know what the weight spread was.

Greatness carried 48 kg ono to win in 1983. 

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2 hours ago, Memphis3 said:

Greatness carried 48 kg ono to win in 1983. 

Good memories Mark.....over the years its been a lightweights Cup.

In early days Irish Twist won with 6 st 7 lbs. = 41.3kg

And Du Maurier smoked them with 7 st  6lbs. = 47.2 kg

Very few winners near 9 st.....57 kgs

Millionaire Military Move recently won with 58 kgs ,....the topweight carried  59.......beating Who Shot Thebarman who was on bottom weight of 53 kg.

Of course minimums have risen over the years , and more female jockeys and overseas lightweights essential !

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Yes enough jocks would be the issue nowadays mate. Guy like Bowman wouldn’t have even been a jockey 40 years back now they’re riding 100 Group one winners. No wonder they have the strength in a close finish . Little blokes like Noel Eastwood relied on pure riding skill. As do a lot of the current girls. Great memories alright. Still waiting for the next one. 

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12 hours ago, Leggy said:

Yep. Real handicaps, real handicappers, genuine pace, and yes, real commentators.

Alan Bright was the commentator. He must have been on the committee because he was out at the presentation. 

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On 12/16/2021 at 7:43 PM, Leggy said:

Thanks for that trip down memory lane Leggy. Top field, great finish, great horse and rider. Bob Skelton was an absolute master in the saddle riding with that typically long rein style of his. Top bloke too. Humble with it - gave the credit to the horse but he showed great patience that day and got the result they so richly deserved.

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7 hours ago, High Sparrow said:

Thanks for that trip down memory lane Leggy. Top field, great finish, great horse and rider. Bob Skelton was an absolute master in the saddle riding with that typically long rein style of his. Top bloke too. Humble with it - gave the credit to the horse but he showed great patience that day and got the result they so richly deserved.

You might like this one too. I was there that day.

 

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12 hours ago, tasman man said:

Something about the flow and descripton and accuracy of Peter Kelly.

I still think he our best on the mic !

 

Yes, all incredible calls. Grey Way's Awapuni Gold Cup is an incredibly exciting race for a 5 horse field with only 2 chances.  He made any race exciting.

Matt Hill does remind me a bit of Peter Kelly with his good flow and his ability to make any race sound exciting.

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That's the interesting thing from these past videos....these were great fields!! Many of these horses were the real deal with La Mer probably being one of the best of all time. We see the disintegration of the form because as soon as these horses get to a stage of racing, they're off to Australia. Nowadays if you look back at some of these races you simply don't recognise any of the horses because they haven't gone on to achieve anything noteworthy....now here's an off the wall thought...

What's say as a horse gets to open class, their weights go up, but as their weights go up they get supplemented for their performances. So say there is a normal $30,000 open class race here, the 50 kg horses are racing for the winners share of the $30,000. Compare that to a greater weighted horse where for every kg up from the minimum, another $15k is added to the stake if they win. So a 60kg weighted horse with a 50kg minimum would be racing for $150,000....

I'm going to think about this one further....maybe something in that weird thought

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