Lay Off the Snips

[Palatable 36]

Well it's 2000 Guineas Day soon, Covid-willing, an historic moment each year for NZ breeding as we assess the latest raft of our best three year-olds over a crucial mid-range 1600m and in conditions that have generally allowed firm tracks.

From it's inception in the seventies it heralded future star stallions like Balmerino and Vice Regal. And in recent years over-achieving Kiwi bred winners of the race have turned into quality stallions. Darci Brahma, Jimmy Choux, Sacred Falls and Atlante have exceeded expectations.

Unfortunately this year's edition looks ready to carry a very small number of intact runners. Mana Nui sounds unlikely to run leaving only three colts as likely starters (Meritable, Noverre and Palamos) among a slew of geldings.

Despite NZ's racing quality inexorably sliding away over the years, the breeding has always held up. Tavistock, Darci Brahma, Ocean Park etc have been near the top of NZ's pile, so why have NZ  trainers been so quick to reach for the emasculators? I Wish I Win is the full younger brother to the $1.4m Karaka saletopper in 2019 (No Limits). Field of Gold is the half to a Derby winner. Wouldn't owners be best to see out their early 3-year old careers before denying them a shot at stud? Tutukaka looks a good shot in this afternoon's Victoria Derby, and his half-sister is Melody Belle for goodness sake - why is he gelded?

I don't work on or near a stud, so the rationale eludes me, but I hear interviewed Kiwi trainers say things like "he was a bit heavy", "we wanted to get his coat off after winter", and "he was getting a bit distracted"... a set of blinkers seemed to help the colt Noverre win the War Decree last week as he raced past a wobbly looking gelded Field of Gold.

The 1st Group 1 for 3-year old colts in Aussie was the Golden Rose. It carried seven colts and two geldings. In Ireland it's the Irish 2,000 guineas which ran in May with ten colts and one gelding. The UK then had their 2,000 guineas with a complete field of colts, as did the U.S. with its first 3yo Group 1 of the season the Florida Derby.

It's time we got our confidence and put the shears in the shed.

 

[Cubes 1,770]

Post of the year in Cubes' opinion...

[Pam Robson 1,547]

I'm not at liberty to peruse some of the magnificent training establishments in various jurisdictions...however, from my humble stance, facilities and staff are two pragmatic reasons why the lads are deprived of their tackle.

I recall Dave Kerr [ and that was years ago ]  based at Riccarton in club stabling, telling me that the property was just not suitable for colts.  I'm pretty sure that Clansman was entire, but he was a rarity for Dave.  He liked them, but felt that the design of the facility made it very hard to keep colts settled and contented.

I went to Rogie's property many years ago, to attend a friend's birthday, and noticed there that the colts were housed in a separate barn from fillies.  Sensible, I thought.

Not possible in most of the yards I've seen locally, and only a very placid boy would find himself left intact.

I've had colts when based elsewhere, but couldn't have one now.  

As far as that goes, I haven't been entrusted with a pedigree that would lend itself to stud future for a very long time...

[Mill Reef 119]

interesting topic, I think Pam's pretty much spot on. Te Akau have a colts barn I think. I think also in NZ you need to be realistic about stallion careers, Tutukaka maybe a blue blood but if he's not endowed with speed and therefore you're up against it making him a stallion despite the genes. Field of Gold is a lump of a lad, they may have considered he'd get way too heavy remaining a colt.

[Dopey 214]

16 hours ago, Pam Robson said:

I'm not at liberty to peruse some of the magnificent training establishments in various jurisdictions...however, from my humble stance, facilities and staff are two pragmatic reasons why the lads are deprived of their tackle.

I recall Dave Kerr [ and that was years ago ]  based at Riccarton in club stabling, telling me that the property was just not suitable for colts.  I'm pretty sure that Clansman was entire, but he was a rarity for Dave.  He liked them, but felt that the design of the facility made it very hard to keep colts settled and contented.

I went to Rogie's property many years ago, to attend a friend's birthday, and noticed there that the colts were housed in a separate barn from fillies.  Sensible, I thought.

Not possible in most of the yards I've seen locally, and only a very placid boy would find himself left intact.

I've had colts when based elsewhere, but couldn't have one now.  

As far as that goes, I haven't been entrusted with a pedigree that would lend itself to stud future for a very long time...

You are correct. I don’t remember one colt while I was with Dave and Jan… Clansman, and Gaffa etc we’re before my time….

[Phar Lap Fan 103]

The prejudice against N.Z.-bred stallions has been long-standing. Even saw a post here about "colonial-bred stallions" - a vomitable expression nowadays. With a closed gene pool, everybody can only mix the same ingredients. More expensive stallions were imported, especially from the 1990s on, but with no discernible improvement in results. 

You can find stallions in Australia that carry N.Z. blood-lines as they seem to have a greater belief in the local product. When you see Sunline, Winx and Verry Elleegant (sorry for the spelling!), you might wonder what happened to their brothers and nephews. Black Caviar, through her sire, could be included.

[Dopey 214]

Quote

…More expensive stallions were imported, especially from the 1990s on, but with no discernible improvement in results. 

I’m not sure that’s true. Guess it depends on what your definition of results is…let’s think improving long term quality of the breed …Notwithstanding the dates imported for use stallions like Last tycoon (O’Reilly), High Chaparral, Defensive play (great broodmare influence) etc have left a lasting influence … for decades…in producing stakes horses.

[Berri 2,131]

This year's running is a rated 85 race. A shame. It's all about the DNA of the broodmare band and that is where we have failed abysmally. How can we have good race horses racing in our 2000 Guineas when we don't have the blood? Horses like Darci Brahma find it difficult to produce a group one winner in Aussie, as does Sacred Falls. Aegon looked like a champion here. Over in Oz he's a group 3 horse. Atlante can't breed a good group one winner in Oz, Jimmy Choux hasn't made it. It's actually a long list now.

What we've got to do is work out how to get 250 internationally mares that have DNA that have the possibility of breeding 120+ rated horses. It's that simple. Preferably would be that these 120+ horses in the pedigree are colts which would mean that genetically they could be kept as colts. Yep...we've got a problem with how we train our colts in NZ. They can't go to the track and stand in tie ups where next door an in heat filly has pissed over the ground a fortnight ago. Same with horse floats and race tracks. Separate barns are an absolute. 

[John Clydesdale 229]

On 11/5/2021 at 10:03 AM, Dopey said:

I’m not sure that’s true. Guess it depends on what your definition of results is…let’s think improving long term quality of the breed …Notwithstanding the dates imported for use stallions like Last tycoon (O’Reilly), High Chaparral, Defensive play (great broodmare influence) etc have left a lasting influence … for decades…in producing stakes horses.

I have to laugh at this note., Peter Keating, Bloodstock Manager at Ra Ora at the time, said to me when I said I was sending a mare to to the first season sire in Defensive Play, he said “a big rolly horse, a handicapper” you will get a broodmare stallion. Well he was right, dam sire of a stakes winner for us, here in NZ and the the US, but alas did not produce the stake winner we wanted Pete is happy and well on the Gold Coast enjoying life, how right he was.

John

[Phar Lap Fan 103]

On 11/5/2021 at 10:03 AM, Dopey said:

I’m not sure that’s true. Guess it depends on what your definition of results is…let’s think improving long term quality of the breed …Notwithstanding the dates imported for use stallions like Last tycoon (O’Reilly), High Chaparral, Defensive play (great broodmare influence) etc have left a lasting influence … for decades…in producing stakes horses.

O'Reilly owed a lot to Hunza - from an established N.Z. family.

[Dopey 214]

15 minutes ago, Phar Lap Fan said:

O'Reilly owed a lot to Hunza - from an established N.Z. family.

And to Last Tycoon who was a megastar at the time…

[Phar Lap Fan 103]

Hunza - a megastar now; e.g. Wolverine and that Gr. 2 mare recently.

[Palatable 36]

A year on and the 2000 Guineas is coming up again, this time with only two colts - Dynastic and the Iffraaj roughie Jaffira.

Above I called out the early gelding of I Wish I Win last year and now he's just won a Golden Eagle it feels a bigger shame he won't be at stud.

In the Coolmore in Oz on Saturday it was a complete field of colts...The gulf widens.

Go a Dynastic / Jaffira quinella.

[Dopey 214]

49 minutes ago, Palatable said:

A year on and the 2000 Guineas is coming up again, this time with only two colts - Dynastic and the Iffraaj roughie Jaffira.

Above I called out the early gelding of I Wish I Win last year and now he's just won a Golden Eagle it feels a bigger shame he won't be at stud.

In the Coolmore in Oz on Saturday it was a complete field of colts...The gulf widens.

Go a Dynastic / Jaffira quinella.

Incidentally, The Coolmore was won by a filly “In Secret” and she spanked them.

[chiknsmack 479]

15 hours ago, Palatable said:

Above I called out the early gelding of I Wish I Win last year and now he's just won a Golden Eagle it feels a bigger shame he won't be at stud.

https://www.tdnausnz.com.au/edition/2022-09-06/an-unlikely-star-we-put-him-behind-a-hedge-so-no-one-could-see-him

TL;DR: He was absurdly wonky in front as a foal so you wouldn't want him carrying too much weight on those legs (or passing those legs onto his kids).

[Dibbles 65]

On 11/4/2022 at 2:14 PM, chiknsmack said:

https://www.tdnausnz.com.au/edition/2022-09-06/an-unlikely-star-we-put-him-behind-a-hedge-so-no-one-could-see-him

TL;DR: He was absurdly wonky in front as a foal so you wouldn't want him carrying too much weight on those legs (or passing those legs onto his kids).

Yes, he had wonky leg and agree they probably gelded to help him not carry the extra weight and slow his maturity down. Some stallions do throw traits just as mares do but a wonky leg like he had at birth my thoughts would be it was caused due to how the foal was lying during utero and not something that would be passed on, but I am no expert.

Agree with Pam smaller stables are probably not set up for colts. Also, what is nicer for the horse a gelding that can be with a mate in a paddock or a colt who has to be by himself and does not understand why he is being told to pull himself together and act like other horses when he gets excited due to still being a colt. 

[Alf Riston 1,512]

Found a bit of time to poke my nose in here - interesting topic with some very interesting points to read through.

'Slower maturing, helping to keep weight off' - I probably should have been gelded years ago and I'd be in much better condition now