scooby3051

POOR QUALITY GROUP 1's IN NZ.

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Prior to Sunday Silence being sent to Japan, a long list of UK Derby winners and broodmares were exported to Japan. In one single year, Japanese owners purchased 46 broodmares from the Keenland sales followed by another 81 the following year. 19 of them were group winners with three being the best of the best. From memory one cost approx $5m. But the others who weren't group winners were seriously related. Then they went to both Ireland and France to raid their coffers. Both Northern Farms and Shadai have been at it. Their aim is to win the Arc with a Japanese horse.

Now on to the Japanese bloodstock mission....stayers. They've realised that stayers appeal more to customers than sprinters. Japanese horses ripped Aussie apart a few years ago. Since then travel and Quarrantine has been tricky but their base is now in place. This is the sort of thing NZ should strive for

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28 minutes ago, Berri said:

Prior to Sunday Silence being sent to Japan, a long list of UK Derby winners and broodmares were exported to Japan. In one single year, Japanese owners purchased 46 broodmares from the Keenland sales followed by another 81 the following year. 19 of them were group winners with three being the best of the best. From memory one cost approx $5m. But the others who weren't group winners were seriously related. Then they went to both Ireland and France to raid their coffers. Both Northern Farms and Shadai have been at it. Their aim is to win the Arc with a Japanese horse.

Now on to the Japanese bloodstock mission....stayers. They've realised that stayers appeal more to customers than sprinters. Japanese horses ripped Aussie apart a few years ago. Since then travel and Quarrantine has been tricky but their base is now in place. This is the sort of thing NZ should strive for

I only know what I see on the telly of Japan…..but they always seem to be fast run staying races, and often on very hard ground, and consequently the horses have fluent actions because that’s the type of horse suited to those races 

Stayers with good actions are a dream come true for Australian racing……..because that’s where they’re weak over there 

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2 hours ago, Berri said:

Prior to Sunday Silence being sent to Japan, a long list of UK Derby winners and broodmares were exported to Japan. In one single year, Japanese owners purchased 46 broodmares from the Keenland sales followed by another 81 the following year. 19 of them were group winners with three being the best of the best. From memory one cost approx $5m. But the others who weren't group winners were seriously related. Then they went to both Ireland and France to raid their coffers. Both Northern Farms and Shadai have been at it. Their aim is to win the Arc with a Japanese horse.

Now on to the Japanese bloodstock mission....stayers. They've realised that stayers appeal more to customers than sprinters. Japanese horses ripped Aussie apart a few years ago. Since then travel and Quarrantine has been tricky but their base is now in place. This is the sort of thing NZ should strive for

Sounds good ,but in practice it aint so easy ,a few years ago I think it was Arthur Williams unloaded bundles of cash ,millions,buying up female relatives of seattle slew for absolutely nothing in return . A few generations on perhaps they have thrown up a winner or two?

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I knew Arthur quite well and had a number of conversations with him about imported mares. As with everything you're only as good as your weakest link. He was trying to buy quite well related mares from the US for buttons. The result was that the mares he was buying were pedigrees without performance nor conformation. Two missing links. US form is very different. If you go to the early 1990's NZ studs had a love affair with American stallions. They came here in their droves....Crested Wave, Racing is Fun, Spectacular Love, Pompeii Court, Mi Preferido, Indian Ore and Defensive Play are a few that drip off my tongue. Patrick even got in the action by buying a half to Ferdinand, Castel Cheline through Moroney and me .Our argument was that if you go after American blood, make sure its the best of the best and drug free. 

image.png.a13342a88fb535d1f4b4d77d6fea0623.png

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2 hours ago, Berri said:

I knew Arthur quite well and had a number of conversations with him about imported mares. As with everything you're only as good as your weakest link. He was trying to buy quite well related mares from the US for buttons. The result was that the mares he was buying were pedigrees without performance nor conformation. Two missing links. US form is very different. If you go to the early 1990's NZ studs had a love affair with American stallions. They came here in their droves....Crested Wave, Racing is Fun, Spectacular Love, Pompeii Court, Mi Preferido, Indian Ore and Defensive Play are a few that drip off my tongue. Patrick even got in the action by buying a half to Ferdinand, Castel Cheline through Moroney and me .Our argument was that if you go after American blood, make sure its the best of the best and drug free. 

image.png.a13342a88fb535d1f4b4d77d6fea0623.png

I bow to your superior nous in this regard ,but I have a wee poser that relates to this.In the aftermath of horlicks win in japan the japs purchased all available mares to take back home ,how did they get on? ,maybe you have some knowledge and also maurita produced a few top performers over there as well,perhaps we can claim a tiny bit of credit for upgrading jap bloodstock.

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On 10/3/2021 at 11:47 AM, ivanthegreat said:

Yes, certainly a worrying trend and it will continue . As the cost of buying at the sales rises due to the potential stake earnings in Aus/Asia it becomes unworkable and anything that slips through will end up there by default.

The banana republic with the pasture is alive and well.

 

This so called trend has been with us for a long time. Te Akau can produce a group 1 horse that can beat a good Aussie field.

The last quality group race field I can remember is the Easter which was won by GREY WAY. Half of that field could hold its own in Aust.

The secret to a good horse is placement in a correct race. The standards of some of our trainers are poor, when it comes to placement.

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Just to take this topic further...and this would form the basis of my argument of genetic relevance. Take the recent Cox Plate winner. Here's his pedigree for reference...NZ$120,000 cost

image.thumb.png.c8e0fc511de26164bc8a666edc156c36.png

 

Sire was a Champion sprinter in 2 hemispheres. Sire of dam a champion US stallion. Grand dam was by Champion European Miler Zilzal (by Champion sire Nureyev. Third dam is champion US filly. There are a lot of 120+ rated horses in this pedigree.

Unfortunately, nowadays, we don't see many of this sort of pedigree in NZ winners anymore up close in the pedigree.....and although genetically good, this is not absolutely top class

Take the best we've bred for a while...Verry Elleegent...

image.thumb.png.9ca1b565987b5a8f9b548f1e027db67d.png

 

 

by Zed (not a good race horse), Dam by Danroad (not a great race horse), 2nd dam by not a good sire) but 5th Dam is Eight Carat, a Daughter of Habibti (champion UK sprinter). So we're missing a few gaps but has some foundation.

Then we've got Callsign Nav, our latest NZ group 1 winner who is rated 109.

image.thumb.png.1a076e1ba8630492fb44bcd4bd516532.png

image.thumb.png.36b474c293b91c42a2c7b171fb0fb573.png

Atlante beat one of the weakest 2000gns in history, Volksraad good sire in NZ but weren't good enough in Australia, love Royal Academy, love REd Anchor as a racehorse but average sire, then Sostenuto (av horse and stallion), average family

Now I'm not knocking any of these horses as I'd love to own them but I am talking about thr standard of group 1 races in NZ. Unfortunately the genetics don't supply or support 120+ horses being bred on a regular basis.

It's actually time to address this but the question is how do you do this?

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On 10/20/2021 at 6:19 PM, Aaron Bidlake said:

All very true Berri but if the stakes money here in NZ isn't matching or even getting close to Aus,HK or further afield no matter how good our horses they are going to be sold. 

We simply need to be getting more money getting put through the TAB somehow, but how? 

The co-mingling of international pools.  Imagine if the Chinese were able to bet into NZ tote pools.  Would result in record turnover.   I'm sure the technology exist, just not the will to work out the appropriate interational agreements.  In the US, I am able to bet into the HK pools.  Makes for some excellent betting opportunities.

And then, there are those like me that would love the opportunity to bet into the NZ pools, but cannot.  Our wagers here on NZ and OZ racing go into a central hub (I believe located at Woodbine racecourse in Toronto, but I could be wrong).  In any event, the paultry amount to handle does not make it worthwhile to have a bet.  Co-mingling worldwide pools is the way to go.

 

 

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On 10/20/2021 at 6:19 PM, Aaron Bidlake said:

All very true Berri but if the stakes money here in NZ isn't matching or even getting close to Aus,HK or further afield no matter how good our horses they are going to be sold. 

We simply need to be getting more money getting put through the TAB somehow, but how? 

The co-mingling of international pools.  Imagine if the Chinese were able to bet into NZ tote pools.  Would result in record turnover.   I'm sure the technology exist, just not the will to work out the appropriate interational agreements.  In the US, I am able to bet into the HK pools.  Makes for some excellent betting opportunities.

And then, there are those like me that would love the opportunity to bet into the NZ pools, but cannot.  Our wagers here on NZ and OZ racing go into a central hub (I believe located at Woodbine racecourse in Toronto, but I could be wrong).  In any event, the paultry amount to handle does not make it worthwhile to have a bet.  Co-mingling worldwide pools is the way to go.

 

 

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On 10/20/2021 at 6:19 PM, Aaron Bidlake said:

All very true Berri but if the stakes money here in NZ isn't matching or even getting close to Aus,HK or further afield no matter how good our horses they are going to be sold. 

We simply need to be getting more money getting put through the TAB somehow, but how? 

The co-mingling of international pools.  Imagine if the Chinese were able to bet into NZ tote pools.  Would result in record turnover.   I'm sure the technology exist, just not the will to work out the appropriate interational agreements.  In the US, I am able to bet into the HK pools.  Makes for some excellent betting opportunities.

And then, there are those like me that would love the opportunity to bet into the NZ pools, but cannot.  Our wagers here on NZ and OZ racing go into a central hub (I believe located at Woodbine racecourse in Toronto, but I could be wrong).  In any event, the paultry amount to handle does not make it worthwhile to have a bet.  Co-mingling worldwide pools is the way to go.

 

 

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I question the validity of group races in our country.

The Thompson Handicap is, at best, a listed event, not Group 3.

Wellington's Wakefield Challenge Stakes might possibly, at a stretch, be Group 3, but is certainly not of Group 2 standard.

The year by year deterioration in the standard of racing at Trentham has been sad.  This from a person who as a 14 year old lad joined the throng to see Stipulate run second to Great Sensation.

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1 hour ago, Berri said:

Just to take this topic further...and this would form the basis of my argument of genetic relevance. Take the recent Cox Plate winner. Here's his pedigree for reference...NZ$120,000 cost

image.thumb.png.c8e0fc511de26164bc8a666edc156c36.png

 

Sire was a Champion sprinter in 2 hemispheres. Sire of dam a champion US stallion. Grand dam was by Champion European Miler Zilzal (by Champion sire Nureyev. Third dam is champion US filly. There are a lot of 120+ rated horses in this pedigree.

Unfortunately, nowadays, we don't see many of this sort of pedigree in NZ winners anymore up close in the pedigree.....and although genetically good, this is not absolutely top class

Take the best we've bred for a while...Verry Elleegent...

image.thumb.png.9ca1b565987b5a8f9b548f1e027db67d.png

 

 

by Zed (not a good race horse), Dam by Danroad (not a great race horse), 2nd dam by not a good sire) but 5th Dam is Eight Carat, a Daughter of Habibti (champion UK sprinter). So we're missing a few gaps but has some foundation.

Then we've got Callsign Nav, our latest NZ group 1 winner who is rated 109.

image.thumb.png.1a076e1ba8630492fb44bcd4bd516532.png

image.thumb.png.36b474c293b91c42a2c7b171fb0fb573.png

Atlante beat one of the weakest 2000gns in history, Volksraad good sire in NZ but weren't good enough in Australia, love Royal Academy, love REd Anchor as a racehorse but average sire, then Sostenuto (av horse and stallion), average family

Now I'm not knocking any of these horses as I'd love to own them but I am talking about thr standard of group 1 races in NZ. Unfortunately the genetics don't supply or support 120+ horses being bred on a regular basis.

It's actually time to address this but the question is how do you do this?

Some interesting discussion here.

I agree we need to upgrade our broodmare band. I look at a lot of the pedigrees in our sales catalog and many of the mares bred are at least 2-3 generations away from any decent black type producers/race horses. Apart from the the top 1-2 studs in NZ, who has the money to buy these mares in enough numbers to improve our broodmare band......

In terms of how you look at pedigrees..

What weight do you give to a horse in a pedigree that has a high race rating but might not of passed those genetics onto their progeny at stud, then vise versa? 

When does the "progeny test" test outweigh rating? 

 

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41 minutes ago, Tauhei Notts said:

I question the validity of group races in our country.

The Thompson Handicap is, at best, a listed event, not Group 3.

Wellington's Wakefield Challenge Stakes might possibly, at a stretch, be Group 3, but is certainly not of Group 2 standard.

The year by year deterioration in the standard of racing at Trentham has been sad.  This from a person who as a 14 year old lad joined the throng to see Stipulate run second to Great Sensation.

Yesterdays Cox Plate was at least a validation of the points ratings,callsign mav performed as well as expected according to the ratings,and other horses and races can be assessed against his mark, and those ratings tell the story whether good or bad.If a race has regular low rating fields it will/ should be downgraded unfortunately.Money does not make a horse run faster but it might keep a few more callsigns  racing here and contain the gradual decline.

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2 hours ago, Scanman said:

The co-mingling of international pools.  Imagine if the Chinese were able to bet into NZ tote pools.  Would result in record turnover.   I'm sure the technology exist, just not the will to work out the appropriate interational agreements.  In the US, I am able to bet into the HK pools.  Makes for some excellent betting opportunities.

And then, there are those like me that would love the opportunity to bet into the NZ pools, but cannot.  Our wagers here on NZ and OZ racing go into a central hub (I believe located at Woodbine racecourse in Toronto, but I could be wrong).  In any event, the paultry amount to handle does not make it worthwhile to have a bet.  Co-mingling worldwide pools is the way to go.

 

 

Co-mingling is more expensive for the punter,you double the deductions from every dollar,nz tab,nz taxman,ozzie tab,ozzie taxman,why would you want to win less money? We see on our screens 3 sets of tote odds from oz,which one is the best ? is it the biggest?,maybe, is it the smallest? again maybe  ,or is it the one with the smallest deductions?,ABSOLUTELY.

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1 hour ago, Nukkledragga said:

Co-mingling is more expensive for the punter,you double the deductions from every dollar,nz tab,nz taxman,ozzie tab,ozzie taxman,why would you want to win less money? We see on our screens 3 sets of tote odds from oz,which one is the best ? is it the biggest?,maybe, is it the smallest? again maybe  ,or is it the one with the smallest deductions?,ABSOLUTELY.

I'm a bit out of touch, but I'm not sure that is correct. Deductions are pretty much the same on comingled and non mingled races from what I can recall.

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2 hours ago, Tauhei Notts said:

I question the validity of group races in our country.

The Thompson Handicap is, at best, a listed event, not Group 3.

Wellington's Wakefield Challenge Stakes might possibly, at a stretch, be Group 3, but is certainly not of Group 2 standard.

The year by year deterioration in the standard of racing at Trentham has been sad.  This from a person who as a 14 year old lad joined the throng to see Stipulate run second to Great Sensation.

Yes very sad. My first visit to Trentham was St Leger day many years ago; also had the Chalmers stakes, Benny something won it I think. And I think The Twinkle beat Mun Lee in the big mile. Even today, Labour weekend, used to be a big meeting. It has certainly fallen from grace in every respect, and the place looks a dump.

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2 hours ago, We're Doomed said:

I'm a bit out of touch, but I'm not sure that is correct. Deductions are pretty much the same on comingled and non mingled races from what I can recall.

I dont know how much they used to be prior to co-mingling but the takeout definitely increased,just had a quick look at the rates being charged and there are big differences between bet types as well as a premium being charged just to bet on Hong Kong .                 Most bets are co- mingled with the ozzies so it has become the new norm but here are some numbers from the tab rules of racin  all in %                                      nz win14.5   hk 17.5                      

Nz place 14.25   hk 17.5

Nz quinella 17.5

1st 4  22.5    hk25

Nz Tri 20   hk 25 we used to be separate from oz and ran our own pools ,now we are paying extra in nz to create bigger pools for no real benefit for the punter ,and both us and the ozzies pay extra to pump up HKs pools,world pool,. leave me out

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13 hours ago, Nukkledragga said:

I dont know how much they used to be prior to co-mingling but the takeout definitely increased,just had a quick look at the rates being charged and there are big differences between bet types as well as a premium being charged just to bet on Hong Kong .                 Most bets are co- mingled with the ozzies so it has become the new norm but here are some numbers from the tab rules of racin  all in %                                      nz win14.5   hk 17.5                      

Nz place 14.25   hk 17.5

Nz quinella 17.5

1st 4  22.5    hk25

Nz Tri 20   hk 25 we used to be separate from oz and ran our own pools ,now we are paying extra in nz to create bigger pools for no real benefit for the punter ,and both us and the ozzies pay extra to pump up HKs pools,world pool,. leave me out

That may be true.  Though, I would much prefer to bet into a multi-million dollar pool (HK), than a $3-5K pool (OZ/NZ racing) here in the US.

However, my initial post was not directed towards the punter, though, in the end, they benefit as well..  My post was addressing Aaron's concern about driviing up turnover to increase purses. 

Simple formula really.  Highter turnover = Higher purses = greater ownership involvement/sustainablility = more horses bred/bought/sold = more horses running in races = equals better betting opportunities for the punter.; and repeat.  It really is a no lose situation.

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11 minutes ago, Scanman said:

That may be true.  Though, I would much prefer to bet into a multi-million dollar pool (HK), than a $3-5K pool (OZ/NZ racing) here in the US.

However, my initial post was not directed towards the punter, though, in the end, they benefit as well..  My post was addressing Aaron's concern about driviing up turnover to increase purses. 

Simple formula really.  Highter turnover = Higher purses = greater ownership involvement/sustainablility = more horses bred/bought/sold = more horses running in races = equals better betting opportunities for the punter.; and repeat.  It really is a no lose situation.

Bigger turnovers and more public interest in Racing also means you can attract more real sponsorship. The racing sponsorship scene is NZ is pretty dire. There is very little genuine commercial sponsorship for major races in NZ.  The Telegraph is sponsored by an individual, as it Te Rapa's major race. The NZ Cup is sponsored by the people who made millions building their AWT. Surely they aren't doing it in the hope of getting a few more AWTs to build.

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56 minutes ago, Scanman said:

That may be true.  Though, I would much prefer to bet into a multi-million dollar pool (HK), than a $3-5K pool (OZ/NZ racing) here in the US.

However, my initial post was not directed towards the punter, though, in the end, they benefit as well..  My post was addressing Aaron's concern about driviing up turnover to increase purses. 

Simple formula really.  Highter turnover = Higher purses = greater ownership involvement/sustainablility = more horses bred/bought/sold = more horses running in races = equals better betting opportunities for the punter.; and repeat.  It really is a no lose situation.

I agree with most of that but strongly disagree that it is better betting for the punter in any way  .There has been a lot said about crappy betting percentages offered by bookies ,it is rare for them to get below 120% on horse races ,co- mingling is having the same effect on tote betting ,the percentages are going the wrong way and punters are getting less in return.

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Here is something else that shows how we are worse off with co- mingling.In the good old days we used to be able to scoop any pool with a percentage ticket,even back before decimal currency,now we are bound by ozzie rules that say a 50c = 50% ticket for example can no longer scoop the pool as it had always done before,in short we get to win less money for the same investment.The jackpots created by this system stack up to millions of held back cash that is not being reinvested,there is always money being held back from what would previously have been paid out,do the jackpots create enough of a boost to turnover,or would the knowledge that you could scoop the pool with a % ticket be better( think terminating pick6)

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