RaceCafe..#1...Tipsters Thread.... Share Your Fancies For Fun...Lets See Who The Best Tipsters Here Are.
myk

Kings son lucky

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The current system plainly isn't working Rod, as evidenced by the statistics, so that deals with your point in paragraph 2.

As to paragraph 3, promoters of Maori justice have even suggested the same thing you raise. Without going into it in great deal, it has all to do with an individuals mana and tapu. Maori justice promotes restoring the mana of both the victim and the offender. The current system does little to restore the mana of the former, and nothing for the latter.

Finally, the point you make in paragraph 1 is irrelevant when you consider the context of the Treaty of Waitangi. Article 2 (Maori version) clearly states that Maori retain rangitiratanga (absolute sovereignty) over their land and their subjects. Translated it means that they have the right to resolve disputes concerning Maori by using traditional customary law.

Maori dispute resolution offers a lot more flexibility than the Pakeha system without a shadow of a doubt.

I haven't stated any support for the current system. I am stating support for a single system, whether that be one along the lines of what you suggest is suitable 'as a separate system', is to be determined.

If I have read your point correctly relating to 'my paragraph 3', and that this relates to who is the determinator of under which system an individual would fall, I would be suggesting, there is no determinator, as everyone should fall under the same 'system'. What that system is, is certainly up for discussion, but I would never lend support to there being more than one system with the principal variation being based around race.

My point in paragraph one is hardly irrelevent, when you are trying to debate a topic, but are presenting segregated views. I am merely trying to establish whether you are supporting segregation in the manner you describe. I surely hope not.

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Guest Quarter horse
To even lend support for a separate system, demonstrates a high degree of racism in itself.

Surely, you would be advocating one system for all, with no form of segregation, and a system that was able to be supported by the entire multi-cultural NZ community.

In your separated system, who would be the determinator of which system an individual fell under. If I was a pakeha, I might actually want to go under the 'maori' system, and surely, there would be no issue with that.

Just to add to my previous reply, why don't you look at the current justice system in the same way as you look at the NZ TAB regime?

Now you're a big advocate for change as far as RacingNZ is concerned because, as you have pointed out on many an occasion, the current system isn't working.

Substitute current justice system for RacingNZ and there's your answer.

Welcome to our team Rod and glad to have you onboard.;).

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Guest Quarter horse

My point in paragraph one is hardly irrelevent, when you are trying to debate a topic, but are presenting segregated views. I am merely trying to establish whether you are supporting segregation in the manner you describe. I surely hope not.

No I'm not promoting segregation in the manner that you suggest. But the topic of Maori dispute resolution and Maori justice encompasses a whole range of concepts that are beyond what I am able to convey in a few short sentences.

The easiest way to describe it is that they have a certain 'law and economics' jurisprudential approach to righting wrongs. Individuals are unable to contribute to society while incarcerated, and that handicap flows on to their extended family. Maori have a collectivist approach to everything, so any unbalance caused by a individual affects them all. Restoring that balance is the only way forward. Hence, the good of the collective whole is paramount.

You're going to have to research the rest to fully understand what supporters of Maori justice are proposing.

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You're going to have to research the rest to fully understand what supporters of Maori justice are proposing.
That may well be the case. Given I am not about to do that, I will only hope that whatever it is they are proposing, is not one system for one 'group' and another for the 'rest' to put it plainly. I would more than welcome proposals that dealt with the relative cultural ways of maori as well as all other cultures in the community, so as to deliver what is collectively viewed as an improvement to the current system.

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Guest Quarter horse
That may well be the case. Given I am not about to do that, I will only hope that whatever it is they are proposing, is not one system for one 'group' and another for the 'rest' to put it plainly. I would more than welcome proposals that dealt with the relative cultural ways of maori as well as all other cultures in the community, so as to deliver what is collectively viewed as an improvement to the current system.

Not sure I agree with the 'other cultures' bit. Maori are indigenous to NZ so they have rights that immigrants do not.

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Guest Quarter horse

Just to add, aspects of Maori Dispute Resolution have already permeated into the current system.

Family Group Conferences and Restorative Justice Programmes are but two examples.

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Not sure I agree with the 'other cultures' bit. Maori are indigenous to NZ so they have rights that immigrants do not.
Well then we will have to disagree. I don't believe indigenous people 'should' have any greater rights than anyone else. Nor should thay have any lesser rights. The world has evolved. People everywhere are of mixed race. Produce a system that provides the best solution, being mindful of culture, but not necessarily one culture over another. That's my opinion, and I'm sticking with it.

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Just to add, aspects of Maori Dispute Resolution have already permeated into the current system.

Family Group Conferences and Restorative Justice Programmes are but two examples.

As I say, I'm not disputing what is right or wrong about the current system. If there are flaws, and if things can be dealt with in a different way that is supported to the level that it becomes law, then I'm all for it, as long as there are no aspects of race to differentiate it.

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Well then we will have to disagree. I don't believe indigenous people 'should' have any greater rights than anyone else. Nor should thay have any lesser rights. The world has evolved. People everywhere are of mixed race. Produce a system that provides the best solution, being mindful of culture, but not necessarily one culture over another. That's my opinion, and I'm sticking with it.

Brilliantly put Rod.

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Guest Quarter horse
Well then we will have to disagree. I don't believe indigenous people 'should' have any greater rights than anyone else. Nor should thay have any lesser rights. The world has evolved. People everywhere are of mixed race. Produce a system that provides the best solution, being mindful of culture, but not necessarily one culture over another. That's my opinion, and I'm sticking with it.

I probably should have added that other cultural systems have advantages that, in an ideal world, could be incorporated into the NZ justice system.

For example, Chinese law is made both by the state and by systems of order based on ethics derived from Confucianism and emphasising education and moral development. So it very much adheres to a classical naturalism jurisprudential outlook as opposed to the liberalist system that is evident here (as in equality for all).

But I agree with you that we will have to disagree and thanks for adding some civility to this discussion Rod. :y:

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Guest Quarter horse

I probably should elaborate over the 'rights' issue.

Maori have rights afforded them under the Treaty that immigrants do not. You may or may not perceive that as inequality but I don't.

I'm definitely not saying that a Maori should receive a lighter penalty than a European. In reality, the opposite normally occurs through the latter's ability to afford better legal representation. Now I know this goes against one of the principles of the rule of law but it's an unfortunate fact.

I too am all for a society that promotes unity. For it is only through a united front will the economic prosperity of this country improve (or any country for that matter).

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Guest Quarter horse
So spell it out to me Jack, did maori cede sovereignty of NZ to the Queen - a simple yes or no would be great!

Speaking of questions requiring answers, can you please refer to post #54 and list all those businesses that have been gifted to Maori over the years.

Thanks.

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There was a man of TV News last night from the Ngai Puhi Iwi challenging the right of the Maori King to represent all Maori. This man was saying that the current King had become power crazy. It was his assertion that the King rules over Tainui and no other tribes.

I recall some months ago the Maori King was reported to have told a Kaumatua from his own Iwi to "fu*k off", when he said something the King did not agree with.

I fear this current repesentative of the Maori people does not have the Mana of his predecessors. This at a time when Maori need leaders who are seen to show strength by being calm, thoughtful and considerate, yet resolute.

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There was a man of TV News last night from the Ngai Puhi Iwi challenging the right of the Maori King to represent all Maori. This man was saying that the current King had become power crazy. It was his assertion that the King rules over Tainui and no other tribes.

I recall some months ago the Maori King was reported to have told a Kaumatua from his own Iwi to "fu*k off", when he said something the King did not agree with.

I fear this current repesentative of the Maori people does not have the Mana of his predecessors. This at a time when Maori need leaders who are seen to show strength by being calm, thoughtful and considerate, yet resolute.

You're not telling the whole story Rooboy.

That same man also said that the current Maori King was still earning his stripes and that he may, in time, become as respected as his predecessor.

As for your claim about an underling being put in his place for disagreeing with the boss, I'm sure that's caused ripples around the world. Surely that must be a global precedent?:D

But you told a good yarn all the same Rooboy, full of heresay and half-truths, so I'm sure you would have reached your intended audience.;)

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You're not telling the whole story Rooboy.

That same man also said that the current Maori King was still earning his stripes and that he may, in time, become as respected as his predecessor.

As for your claim about an underling being put in his place for disagreeing with the boss, I'm sure that's caused ripples around the world. Surely that must be a global precedent?:D

But you told a good yarn all the same Rooboy, full of heresay and half-truths, so I'm sure you would have reached your intended audience.]

Horse,if Rooboy is telling half-truths and hearsay,why are the king and Morgan hellbent on stopping Tania Martin from reporting the truth to their people on a lot of previous spending of the pair.You know as well as me,this is neither hearsay or half truths.They are going to all extremes to shut her up,but only succeeding in the people giving her stronger support in her endeavours to supply the truth to them.

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Horse,if Rooboy is telling half-truths and hearsay,why are the king and Morgan hellbent on stopping Tania Martin from reporting the truth to their people on a lot of previous spending of the pair.You know as well as me,this is neither hearsay or half truths.They are going to all extremes to shut her up,but only succeeding in the people giving her stronger support in her endeavours to supply the truth to them.

So what's your motivation here myk? You seem hell-bent on taking any minor issue affecting Maori, that has a negative slant on it, and turning it into a major issue.

Why don't you take all the examples of poor management and corrupt practices that are occurring in traditional european businesses?

Or doesn't that suit your angle?

I think I read somewhere that you are, allegedly, an immigrant from SA. If that is the case then you can take your racist ideologies and go home. Some of us are trying to build a better country through the concept of kotahitinga, or unity, and divisive attitudes like yours are unwanted.

Finally, the half-truths and heresay I was referring to are those explicitly stated in Rooboy's post, which is not what you are referring to.

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You're not telling the whole story Rooboy.

That same man also said that the current Maori King was still earning his stripes and that he may, in time, become as respected as his predecessor.

As for your claim about an underling being put in his place for disagreeing with the boss, I'm sure that's caused ripples around the world. Surely that must be a global precedent?:D

But you told a good yarn all the same Rooboy, full of heresay and half-truths, so I'm sure you would have reached your intended audience.]

Your swift rebuke had me doubting I had picked up the correct tone of this man's criticism, Quater horse. So I googled what David Rankin of the Nga Puhi tribe had said and found that it could be you who is dealing in "half truths". Here is an exert from Rankins critique

"Tuheita is not a traditional Maori leader at all. He hasn't even got the Reo (Maori language. He is someone who pretends to be the Maori King which we (Nga Puhi) find offensive". He later refers to Tuheitia as "The King of Huntly".

You then go on to refer to a kaumatua as an "underling" deserving to be put in his place by "his boss". This is not the New York Mafia. A strong Maori leader would not put down an elder in such a manner in a public forum. I stand by my criticism of him.

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Guest Quarter horse
Your swift rebuke had me doubting I had picked up the correct tone of this man's criticism, Quater horse. So I googled what David Rankin of the Nga Puhi tribe had said and found that it could be you who is dealing in "half truths". Here is an exert from Rankins critique

"Tuheita is not a traditional Maori leader at all. He hasn't even got the Reo (Maori language. He is someone who pretends to be the Maori King which we (Nga Puhi) find offensive". He later refers to Tuheitia as "The King of Huntly".

You then go on to refer to a kaumatua as an "underling" deserving to be put in his place by "his boss". This is not the New York Mafia. A strong Maori leader would not put down an elder in such a manner in a public forum. I stand by my criticism of him.

I watched that interview with Mark Sainsbury and Rankin agreed that Tuheitia could go on to be a respected leader, and that it's too early to judge.

Question: have you bothered to research into any acts of poor leadership among Pakeha or are you only interested in Maori examples?

You know as well as I do that the former would greatly outweigh the latter.

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I watched that interview with Mark Sainsbury and Rankin agreed that Tuheitia could go on to be a respected leader, and that it's too early to judge.

Question: have you bothered to research into any acts of poor leadership among Pakeha or are you only interested in Maori examples?

You know as well as I do that the former would greatly outweigh the latter.

The thread is about the Maori King and his family. I merely put forward my thoughts on the man in question.

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In regards to the very first post - just how is the King's son lucky? He has been charged under the boyracer legislation. How is this preferential treatment?

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I favour anything other than the current system and if that means a separate system encompassing Maori principles such as whanaungatanga (community input and responsibility)]

Oh you mean like this?

A former iwi director has been convicted of fraud after funding his own nightclub and mortgage repayments with money intended for Maori children.

Arapeta Victor Hamilton, former chief executive of Ngapuhi Iwi Social Services in Kaikohe, was found guilty of five charges of fraud in Auckland District Court today.

Serious Fraud Office chief executive Adam Feeley said Hamilton violated the trust of NISS and the community.

''Mr Hamilton took advantage of his position for personal financial gain and, in doing so, has defrauded the organisation of valuable funds intended to enhance the local community.''

NISS was a Northland company set up to deliver services to Maori children through government and community funded contracts from 1997 to 2006.

Hamilton was appointed chief executive of NISS in October 2000 and given responsibility for the company's finances.

As a sole signing authority for two bank accounts, Hamilton wrote more than 130 cheques to himself and his companies between January 2000 and November 2002.

Hamilton stole about $147,500 of NISS funds to cover personal expenses.

This included nine payments totalling $12,885 to a South Auckland nightclub he owned and $86,588 worth of mortgage payments.

A further 80 cheques totalling about $28,000 were written to cash or to a company owned by Hamilton.

He also paid fraudulent salary advances to himself.

Concerns about the company's finances were raised by the Board and Hamilton lost his financial position in June 2004.

Mr Feeley said the case highlighted the need to have fraud prevention policies in place, particularly in relation to people in key positions.

''The guilty verdict in this case is a positive outcome and we hope it will provide some justice for those affected by Hamilton's actions,'' Mr Feeley said.

Hamilton is due to be sentenced on August 3.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/5117403/Iwi-director-guilty-of-fraud

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Guest Quarter horse
Oh you mean like this?

A former iwi director has been convicted of fraud after funding his own nightclub and mortgage repayments with money intended for Maori children.

Arapeta Victor Hamilton, former chief executive of Ngapuhi Iwi Social Services in Kaikohe, was found guilty of five charges of fraud in Auckland District Court today.

Serious Fraud Office chief executive Adam Feeley said Hamilton violated the trust of NISS and the community.

''Mr Hamilton took advantage of his position for personal financial gain and, in doing so, has defrauded the organisation of valuable funds intended to enhance the local community.''

NISS was a Northland company set up to deliver services to Maori children through government and community funded contracts from 1997 to 2006.

Hamilton was appointed chief executive of NISS in October 2000 and given responsibility for the company's finances.

As a sole signing authority for two bank accounts, Hamilton wrote more than 130 cheques to himself and his companies between January 2000 and November 2002.

Hamilton stole about $147,500 of NISS funds to cover personal expenses.

This included nine payments totalling $12,885 to a South Auckland nightclub he owned and $86,588 worth of mortgage payments.

A further 80 cheques totalling about $28,000 were written to cash or to a company owned by Hamilton.

He also paid fraudulent salary advances to himself.

Concerns about the company's finances were raised by the Board and Hamilton lost his financial position in June 2004.

Mr Feeley said the case highlighted the need to have fraud prevention policies in place, particularly in relation to people in key positions.

''The guilty verdict in this case is a positive outcome and we hope it will provide some justice for those affected by Hamilton's actions,'' Mr Feeley said.

Hamilton is due to be sentenced on August 3.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/5117403/Iwi-director-guilty-of-fraud

Obviously the cuz needs some lessons from the Pakeha on how to REALLY rip the system off.

The guy in the first case took $500k while the second crowd got $2,000,000.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/southland-times/news/court/4715015/Executive-guilty-of-pokie-debt-fraud

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10583019

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In regards to the very first post - just how is the King's son lucky? He has been charged under the boyracer legislation. How is this preferential treatment?

Do you know what date his appearence is?

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