Blossom Lady

Ellerslie / Counties merger

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Hopefully it works out right , but still have a chuckle at the famous stakes doubling article by Guerin , and he published that without question !!! , worst piece of racing journalism in a while . How anyone believed that defies any logic , and why it was published and stated is baffling . It was near yearling sales time though. 

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There were no naysayers at the CRC meeting, as the members know what the issues that the club has been facing over recent years. They are aware of the financial. The bottom line has been in continual deficit over a good many years..

The naysayers on here are surely not members of the two clubs in discussion. They are spectators with no skin in this particular game. So what value would you place on their views?

 

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52 minutes ago, Nerula said:

There were no naysayers at the CRC meeting, as the members know what the issues that the club has been facing over recent years. They are aware of the financial. The bottom line has been in continual deficit over a good many years..

The naysayers on here are surely not members of the two clubs in discussion. They are spectators with no skin in this particular game. So what value would you place on their views?

 

It's up to club but this is a racing discussion forum that's all. So someone posts minimum stakes going to be 100k,  taxpayers on here who have seen their hard earned thrown into the begging bowl of racing are naturally  interested how this magic trick is performed . Get with the programme , racing  put out the begging bowl  , crumbs were thrown in  by government , so it's any taxpayers right to question racing and discuss what we want .  Everyone involved in racing now and can poke nose in , is that not great !!! 

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Why $100,000 stakes? :blink:
Spending the money like the Labour/Green government before even earning it !
EASY EASY SOFTLY SOFTLY Auckland Turf Club!
How about just doubling stakes for the first few years. i.e $20,000 Maidens scaled upwards on Rating bands from there is a fine starting point. :wub:
We've been racing for shit stakes i.e.$10,000 maidens for years so doubling this would be a massive help to stimulate racing ... rather than blowing the lot in 5 years with over inflated stakes.
100% increase in stakes over a longer period than a 1000% increase over a short term is a safer savvy economic plan.

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In time and sooner than later I'd like to see this stakes structure as the minimum....
GROUP 1:      $500,000 - $750,000 (10 Years)
GROUP 2:      $250,000 - $350,000 (10 Years)
GROUP 3:      $150,000 - $250,000 (10 Years)
LISTED:          $100,000 - $150,000 (10 Years)
OPEN:            $   75,000 - $100,000 (10 Years)
RATING 85:   $   50,000 - $  75,000 (10 Years)
RATING 75:   $   35,000 - $  50,000 (10 Years)
RATING 65:   $   25,000 - $  35,000 (10 Years)
MAIDEN:        $   20,000 - $  30,000 (10 Years)

Can the Auckland Turf Club achieve this over the next 10 years? ....Or better still NZ Racing?

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4 hours ago, Ohokaman said:

Clearly jumping races, including iconic ones, are not part of the plans. The Bool must be a mystery to them......🙄

Correct ....no jumping at Ellerslie.

But there are some 8 or 9 jumping courses stiil in operation.

As most courses need work ,there is confidence that there will be ample to adequately handle the requirements.

I think this winter/jumps season has 100 x jumping races programmed , already some have not proceded due to lack of horses.

There have to date been about 60 jumpers at trials with field average to date about 7 horses in TAB races held in last week.

There appears to be less than 20 jockeys active and available for rides.

IMO the future of jumps racing in NZ must be in doubt.

But whatever , courses such as Te Aroha , Te Rapa , Hastings Trentham and Riccarton that have hosted our Premier races in recent years should be able to continue that tradition.

 

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1 hour ago, Red Rum said:

It's up to club but this is a racing discussion forum that's all. So someone posts minimum stakes going to be 100k,  taxpayers on here who have seen their hard earned thrown into the begging bowl of racing are naturally  interested how this magic trick is performed . Get with the programme , racing  put out the begging bowl  , crumbs were thrown in  by government , so it's any taxpayers right to question racing and discuss what we want .  Everyone involved in racing now and can poke nose in , is that not great !!! 

I think I explained that the presentation spoke of average stake being over $100 k.....and that was also stated in article on Love Racing [NZTR] site and in the NZ Herald article.

The person who posted about a minimum stake was incorrect.There was NO discussion at all about minimum stakes.

In recent years the average stakes have been published in the ARC annual report and they have be between $55k in 2016/17 and $72 k the next season and $69 k last season but the average  influenced by 3 x $1mill races and 3 x $500k races . 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Disillusioned said:

 

I dunno how 'young' you are, Tasman Man, but I am decidedly sceptical when it comes to bold new plans that even you, a big fan, can't summarise without some very telling, and largely meaningless, phraseology:

·         'Hope on the horizon'

·         'Some water to flow under the bridge'

·         'Too early ... to state'

·         'It was indicated'

·         'Assume'

·         'Envisage'

·         At least three 'will be' references

Pointing that out might, in your eyes, make me a 'disillusionary' or a 'negaholic' but if I am asked to vote on something I likes me to have a bit more certainty...

Loved the bit about 'the excellent well rounded ARC Board' and 'real estate and financial professionals', too. Such folk, of course, never err, and never ever fail to deliver on their promises. Yeah, right.

You are correct in saying doing nothing is not an option but what you have summarised would cause me to run to the hills.

Curious, too, that the 'simple, easy to follow presentation' left some in here uncertain as to what was being talked about increase-wise - average stakes or minimum stakes.

Do you have a link to a list of every race run at Ellerslie - you say it is 'publicly available' - so that I can Excel-analyse same?

 

 

 

 

Obviously not only disillusioned but extremely cynical as well.

The presentation was the Club and Boards first communication to the members about the proposal of the potential amalgamation.

It was not the complete information package outlining the detail which members will vote on.

My summary on here was just that , a summary....

I clearly understood the key points...another poster on here was incorrect stating a minimum stake was discussed...it was not.

I clearly understand what the plan is to build up the planned fund to carry out work on the track and ultimately the other facilities as well as rising and maintaining stakes at a considerable higher level.

Clearly you are against all this .....even before you hear what it is.

As stated earlier ,if you advise me of your interest in the subject  I would willingly try to answer any queries as it may help others who need to vote.

As a member I support it totally and imagine will vote on the amalgamation proposal.

If you a member you obviously will cancel out my vote .If you just disillusioned then maybe tell us what you support rather than what you against.

 

 

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13 hours ago, Disillusioned said:

 

I dunno how 'young' you are, Tasman Man, but I am decidedly sceptical when it comes to bold new plans that even you, a big fan, can't summarise without some very telling, and largely meaningless, phraseology:

·         'Hope on the horizon'

·         'Some water to flow under the bridge'

·         'Too early ... to state'

·         'It was indicated'

·         'Assume'

·         'Envisage'

·         At least three 'will be' references

Pointing that out might, in your eyes, make me a 'disillusionary' or a 'negaholic' but if I am asked to vote on something I likes me to have a bit more certainty...

Loved the bit about 'the excellent well rounded ARC Board' and 'real estate and financial professionals', too. Such folk, of course, never err, and never ever fail to deliver on their promises. Yeah, right.

You are correct in saying doing nothing is not an option but what you have summarised would cause me to run to the hills.

Curious, too, that the 'simple, easy to follow presentation' left some in here uncertain as to what was being talked about increase-wise - average stakes or minimum stakes.

Do you have a link to a list of every race run at Ellerslie - you say it is 'publicly available' - so that I can Excel-analyse same?

 

 

 

 

An excellent post!

As I'm sure youre also aware if you don't agree with the agenda in racing youre also termed a "naysayer" etc

Whilst I'm no where near as bright, young and enthusiastic as the likes of Tasman Man and did not get to see the new whizz bang presentation that would wow us naysayers, I still fail to understand how this all works.

The merger creates a sale that gives the ARC the funds to build a Strathyr track and then the ARC or amalgamated clubs (new name??) out of the kindness of their hearts are going to use reserve funds to put stakes up considerably (on ave. $100k races) and then this new track and new races are going to create a sustainable product of which this new club can sustain or even improve these stakes on into the future? (How much would betting on this product have to improve for this to happen?)

So this is assuming that the Strahyr track changes everything i.e. the new product on show at this new club substantially increases betting turnover ? How does that work did the presentation say? The NZ product at this venue overnight becomes a must for punters everywhere? 

The ARC already has the biggest races, best dates and large input from the industry and they still cannot make it work financially at present, but by installing a new track that changes everything? 

What I can see is the creation of a very deep black hole that the rest of the industry will end up paying for(look to the new Racing Act for financing options), but surely that is not the case as my perceptions of sustainability are obviously well off the mark?

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36 minutes ago, Huey said:

An excellent post!

 

 

The merger creates a sale that gives the ARC the funds to build a Strathyr track

 

 

Lost me here Huey. Are you suggesting ARC needs something from Counties to "allow" them to sell/lease the valuable real estate of the Hill. While in favour of the merger to bring consolidation/focus of purpose/increase in membership or whatever other spruiking terms are employed I think the ARC amalgamation invitation to Counties is based more on benevolence than financial gain. The last thing the industry needs is struggling Clubs being "picked off" and liquidated by the bureaucracy, which is even more likely with this Labour/Greens crowd.

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16 minutes ago, chevy86 said:

 

 

Lost me here Huey. Are you suggesting ARC needs something from Counties to "allow" them to sell/lease the valuable real estate of the Hill. While in favour of the merger to bring consolidation/focus of purpose/increase in membership or whatever other spruiking terms are employed I think the ARC amalgamation invitation to Counties is based more on benevolence than financial gain. The last thing the industry needs is struggling Clubs being "picked off" and liquidated by the bureaucracy, which is even more likely with this Labour/Greens crowd.

I see what youre saying. They aren't selling up Counties as part of the Merger? Just the ARC land? Is that the plan? 

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No! That is not correct. Counties has a large land holding in excess to their needs. They pay extensive rates to just grow grass on this. The  most saleable is the area adjacent to Manakau Rd next to the bulk retail centre that was formerly the Wrightson block owned by CRC. and sold for about 12m.  Operating costs of CRC are swallowing the 12m.  The now saleable site is said to be worth 12m  but in my view would be best developed and held by the club to be formed

The really redundant piece again in my view is the "Island Block " a triangular section of land with the long side adjacent to Buckland Rd the other two sides to the Triangle are the entrances to the racecourse. Go to maps and Buckland Rd and expand and you will be able to see.

Down on the flat near Buckland would be a great place for large stabling. There would need to be a crossing over the course proper or a tunnel under (box culverts)

It is clear that CRC could have gone it alone and developed their assets but they have lacked the expertise and the will to do so. But that has become redundant now as what is good for Racing overides parochialism.

I am an honarary member to CRC and also run a property and investment company. I was not taking shots at the naysayers but really if you dont know  the issues then the discussion is not advanced

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Maybe some" rats and mice" being sold or leased on fringes of Pukekohe but the real value at Ellerslie. ( Not sure Counties hold the financial reserves that Ellerslie do). Stand corrected though if not the case.

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Thanks for the clarification Nerula--reinforces my opinion that consolidation rather than duplication needed and need to protect those reserves. Would have been total folly for CRC to have gone it alone as while Puke is a developing suburb it is not the population epicentre of Auckland and never will be. Ask the Boards of a couple of Golf Clubs who have been re-located ( not Grange/Auckland) to brand new facilities with a cash endowment how the funds are holding up!

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3 hours ago, Huey said:

As I'm sure youre also aware if you don't agree with the agenda in racing youre also termed a "naysayer" etc

Indeed, Huey.

And, much like the Trumpists are doing in the You Ess Of Eh, those against the agenda are invited to butt out.

But, agendaists, tell me again how much money the taxpaper has paid to bail out previous failed agendas, almost all porrly-thought-out exercises.

(Remember Winston 'I Saved Racing!' Peters from only a few years ago?)

That gives me every right to comment.

Tasman Man, my quibble is not so much with what you are hoping for - but far more with how little detail has been provided.

When I (politely) ask for some figures so I can do my own analysis, I get told that I shouldn't bother unless I have a stake in the dealing concerned.

So I will take the criticism to heart ... and butt out.

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1 hour ago, Nerula said:

No! That is not correct. Counties has a large land holding in excess to their needs. They pay extensive rates to just grow grass on this. The  most saleable is the area adjacent to Manakau Rd next to the bulk retail centre that was formerly the Wrightson block owned by CRC. and sold for about 12m.  Operating costs of CRC are swallowing the 12m.  The now saleable site is said to be worth 12m  but in my view would be best developed and held by the club to be formed

The really redundant piece again in my view is the "Island Block " a triangular section of land with the long side adjacent to Buckland Rd the other two sides to the Triangle are the entrances to the racecourse. Go to maps and Buckland Rd and expand and you will be able to see.

Down on the flat near Buckland would be a great place for large stabling. There would need to be a crossing over the course proper or a tunnel under (box culverts)

It is clear that CRC could have gone it alone and developed their assets but they have lacked the expertise and the will to do so. But that has become redundant now as what is good for Racing overides parochialism.

I am an honarary member to CRC and also run a property and investment company. I was not taking shots at the naysayers but really if you dont know  the issues then the discussion is not advanced

Well put Nerula.....no need to apologise to the naysayers who are probing for threads of negativity to hang on to.

As you rightly point out those who don't know the issues do not advance the discussion.....the various Boards have a thorough understanding of what needed to progress the amalgamation which should assist both clubs ,the region and racing overall.Its well researched ,but still some crucial bridges to cross ...IMO

Firstly ,both clubs members need to agree . The land sales need to be advanced and settled . NZ Racing will need to agree and sort out the racing calendar while work being completed .

Once sales complete the 'nest egg' will need to go to work ensuring the annual income can finance the infrastructure plans plus the proposed stakes increases.

As well as protecting capital , leases and rentals will all need to be established.

Return on investment funds can be volatile ,especially at these uncertain times but current and historical trends are good guide .....

These will be crucial to sustain stake targets.

And of course NZ Racing will need to support the discussed extra meetings to be held in the region.

IMO a very positive move to future proof NZ racing......only folk who should be worried ,possibly the odd club who may lose a race date or two but things were probably heading that way anyway.

I think the collaboration is a crucial element. The individual clubs could do their own thing with far greater risks involved and less chance of success. !

NZ Racing can't sustain itself by relying on TAB betting and distributions. This new business being created can support it and run and improve Racing at the same time.

 

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23 minutes ago, Disillusioned said:

Indeed, Huey.

And, much like the Trumpists are doing in the You Ess Of Eh, those against the agenda are invited to butt out.

But, agendaists, tell me again how much money the taxpaper has paid to bail out previous failed agendas, almost all porrly-thought-out exercises.

(Remember Winston 'I Saved Racing!' Peters from only a few years ago?)

That gives me every right to comment.

Tasman Man, my quibble is not so much with what you are hoping for - but far more with how little detail has been provided.

When I (politely) ask for some figures so I can do my own analysis, I get told that I shouldn't bother unless I have a stake in the dealing concerned.

So I will take the criticism to heart ... and butt out.

Cheer up there...it will all work out !

The detailed ground work is done but as stated above ,still needs Club members approval !

Why are you concerned / Whats your angle ?

The annual reports show the current positions of the clubs. Stakes paid are available on NZTR website for every race.

No racing club survives on Racing alone....in recent years the ARC have needed their Events centre and Return on Investment Fund to break even /show a trading profit !

Have a play with their numbers....

Play with a nest egg of $200 mill invested.....and $250 mil................plenty of examples around

Allow for cost of Strathayr track !

I think it very exciting.....I just hope the hot chips stay @ $5 !

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1 hour ago, tasman man said:

Well put Nerula.....no need to apologise to the naysayers who are probing for threads of negativity to hang on to.

As you rightly point out those who don't know the issues do not advance the discussion.....the various Boards have a thorough understanding of what needed to progress the amalgamation which should assist both clubs ,the region and racing overall.Its well researched ,but still some crucial bridges to cross ...IMO

Firstly ,both clubs members need to agree . The land sales need to be advanced and settled . NZ Racing will need to agree and sort out the racing calendar while work being completed .

Once sales complete the 'nest egg' will need to go to work ensuring the annual income can finance the infrastructure plans plus the proposed stakes increases.

As well as protecting capital , leases and rentals will all need to be established.

Return on investment funds can be volatile ,especially at these uncertain times but current and historical trends are good guide .....

These will be crucial to sustain stake targets.

And of course NZ Racing will need to support the discussed extra meetings to be held in the region.

IMO a very positive move to future proof NZ racing......only folk who should be worried ,possibly the odd club who may lose a race date or two but things were probably heading that way anyway.

I think the collaboration is a crucial element. The individual clubs could do their own thing with far greater risks involved and less chance of success. !

NZ Racing can't sustain itself by relying on TAB betting and distributions. This new business being created can support it and run and improve Racing at the same time.

 

But won't this venture eventually have to rely on betting turnover in some format or another? I mean not just the Nest Egg??

What do Counties get out of all of this? They lose their race licenses, identity etc but as nerula has said save millions in operational costs?

BTW I'm all for a Strath track , we should have had one before the AWT imho

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1 hour ago, tasman man said:

 

No racing club survives on Racing alone....

I think it very exciting....

 

Totally on board with both sentiments T. Man!

(With their diversification away from racing just look how well the ATC has done expanding into apartment development! 😉 So as long as the new amalgamated Club steers clear of 'experts" from the Catering domain all should be sweet? and secondly, make sure the bottom end of stake money is bolstered, not the top, to keep more people in the game.)

P.S. Also promising signs that Biden's Inflation Virus will boost interest rate returns sooner rather than later.JMO.

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1 hour ago, chevy86 said:

 

Totally on board with both sentiments T. Man!

(With their diversification away from racing just look how well the ATC has done expanding into apartment development! 😉 So as long as the new amalgamated Club steers clear of 'experts" from the Catering domain all should be sweet? and secondly, make sure the bottom end of stake money is bolstered, not the top, to keep more people in the game.)

P.S. Also promising signs that Biden's Inflation Virus will boost interest rate returns sooner rather than later.JMO.

Indeed Chevy....the Trotting Club certainly not a good example....Trots folks somehow thought they could  do it themselves !!!!!!!!!!Control things and build it !

Bloody disaster !

Hence the Racing clubs will be selling the land and then maybe  further along allowing folk to build what they choose as long as they forever pay nice lease monies on other land !

The resilient NZ horse owner will have a chance to recover more than the pathetic 20% currently. 

I remember not so long ago when the Dunstan Series was born.....many were excited that their lower class stayer and 1600m horse had ONE chance to race for half-decent money.

There should be these  type of races every fortnight once the new club settles in !

 

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Quote

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Blossom Lady sorry to say the only situation relating to your above post is that you have 100% 'exposed' only yourself to be sadly lacking in the skills of scrutinizing and researching information. Probably best that you don't ever consider taking up a second career as a Detective. THE TORCH is male and Jan Skinner is female. Hope at least you have the basic scrutinizing skills to realise that there is a slight difference there. 

Go away and brush up on your ability to do the right researching so you will come back with the correct name of the poster who you got horribly wrong.

Probably not a bad idea when you hopefully find the correct information to realise that you wrongly named someone and do the right thing to man up and apologise to Jan Skinner (who I have never met or have any connection to).

As your investigating skills are nil here's a little heads up to help you on your way to get it right:

- THE TORCH's father trained thoroughbreds in Hawera and his surname starts with a G.

100% how do I know? Hello when it's 'Lights Out' who you going to call 'THE TORCH'.    

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On 5/11/2021 at 11:04 AM, Blossom Lady said:

I was at the members meeting last night and watched a very slick presentation from both clubs which convinced me that this partnership should proceed immediately.

The only objection came from some old grey haired blighter who was sad that it would see the demise of the Ellerslie Hill , move with the times grandad !! 

Racing in NZ will be the winner with hugely increased stakes and a fantastic facility 

May we ask which horses you have owned @Blossom Lady and which part of the country you grew up in and live in?
Have your family owned and trained Horses?

Just curious

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The blame for the lack of Jumps Riders in New Zealand lies fair and square with all those in the industry and Governance.

It's a legal obligation, and part of the wider Circular Economy for those in charge of Racing & managing Racecourse Clubs  to promote and provide 'Education" to attract participants into the industry.

Maybe we need to see a return of the Agricultural and Pastoral shows to what used to be Rural Racecourses and are now City Racecourses and actively encourage people of all walks of life and ages back to the Races.

Hack Races and other Equestrian events were commonplace as part of the whole Raceday experience, as was Athletics, Military, Pipe and other Bands, Tea Parties and Plunket amongst opthers

It's a known fact that Lion Breweries in the mid to late 1990's wanted their foot in the door of Ellerslie, Auckland Racing Club, for their own Liquor Profits.That in itself is a contributing factor to the loss of participation by the wider Community in the Racing industry.

 

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On 5/12/2021 at 10:41 AM, Blossom Lady said:

I have just worked out who you are and will now expose you ............. JAN SKINNER ............ the left leaning mate of Helen Clark , another one who's head is buried in the Avondale sand

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Give me strength. What a way to prove you're wrong.

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Look at the children who took the lead and conducted a successful Horse Holiday Program at Totara Park, Manukau, Auckland and involve them in regular City Raceday appearances to help break down barriers that have come about through poor/ Negligent  Marketing and Promotions within the Racing industry towards younger generations.

These children are our up-and-coming Racing industry participants.

I'm sure given half the chance they would leap at the opportunity to Ride around Ellerslie Racecourse and it's Historic Hill.

It's children like these who are future generations of ensuring a link between city and country.

This was advertised on there Facebook page and in Auckland based Courier newspapers, yes newpapers.

 

Auckland Racing Club, along with others need to get off there butts and do some real Marketing to the wider community to get people back into Horse Racing.

Whilst stakes have a role to play they are not the be all and end all of racing and neither is Betting turnover, it's the whole wider Community that those running the show should be including just like they used to when they first started out as a Racing Club

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=4657461014267201&id=265094310170582&__tn__=-R

 

 

 

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