Flawed Genius 53 Report post Posted May 4, 2021 The big studs continue to talk up the success of their weanling sale but the numbers tell an "interesting" story. Take Bruce Negus for example, the biggest buyer on the day. His purchases at Karaka were : Lot 1 What The Hill – On the Mantelpiece Filly $3,000 (service fee $7000) Lot 22 Downbytheseaside – So Many Words Colt $4000 (service fee $6000) Lot 29 Majestic Son – Susan Colt $9000 (service fee $5000) Lot 43 Sweet Lou – Yasmine Bromac Filly $4000 (service fee $7500) Lot 47 Sweet Lou – Arden’s Pearl Filly $4000 (service fee $7500) Lot 73 A Rocknroll Dance – Chevelle Star Colt $2000 (service fee $5000) Lot 75 Ultimate Machete – Cracka Dawn Colt $3000 (service fee $3000) Lot 95 Downbytheseaside – G B Blaze Colt $4000 (service fee $6000) Lot 101 What The Hill – KC Spur Filly $4000 (service fee $7000) Lot 129 Sweet Lou – Nicky’s Power Filly $3000 (service fee $7500) Total paid: $40,000 Service Fees: $61,500 For the average breeder to have brought these yearlings to market would cost a very conservative $100,000, yet the big studs were prepared to dump these yearlings on the market for $40,000, thereby undercutting their own clients (and devaluing their clients remaining stock). Who experienced success here? Certainly not the average breeder! john legend, tasman man, LongOwner and 1 other 2 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
john legend 743 Report post Posted May 4, 2021 Good luck to Bruce Negus .obviously a great investment getting 10 nice looking weanlings (in the main well bred) for the cost of 1 or 2 yearlings.He could recoup the cost of all at yearling sales by selling a few and then has 7 or 8 free potential race horses. Auctions are simply supply and demand and a great opportunity for a bargain. however agree that studs selling less than stud fees is not a good look and can only make many breeders think why should they bother. LongOwner 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eljay 1,719 Report post Posted May 5, 2021 The studs were the majority offerers. They are all professional organisations. Do you really think they would sell at a loss? The stud fees you mention are "retail" JJ Flash 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nelli 432 Report post Posted May 5, 2021 The issue isn't the big studs but lack of owners. As stated above it is simply supply and demand. I say thank goodness for the big studs because without them imagine how few horses would be bred. There are multiple reasons why people are choosing not to participate in harness racing, not the least being the high levels of debt many households have due to the high cost of housing and student loans. john legend 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Piper 408 Report post Posted May 5, 2021 1 hour ago, eljay said: The studs were the majority offerers. They are all professional organisations. Do you really think they would sell at a loss? The stud fees you mention are "retail" Yes ; stud fees advertised is retail. That money is generally split between the actual stallion owner and the stud standing the stallion. The agrement woukd be something around 50/50 . It is why there was only 7 actual vendors for the whole sale. NZB would rather the smaller breeders to sell on Gavelhouse. You can get up to 20% discount in retail for multiple mares or early bird payment. The studs get close to 50% Art Major 14k Your mare, $11,200 + GST, add vet, working fee and grazing. You need approx 15k to make money. Their mare, an undisclosed fee to stallion owner ( could be as low as $3500 ; 2005/6 $6,600 ) + average of fixed costs and operating costs . Stables 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
john legend 743 Report post Posted May 7, 2021 Having bred many horses over years the profit potential is simply being eroded by acceptance of $4000 to $6000 sales of quality weanlings by the studs that try to have it both ways .they want payment plus add ons for breeding a foal then accept lower prices for selling their own progeny from their own mares.It is good for those that want to race horses (very tempting)but expect even lower mares bred this season .. by private breeders. Navitas and LongOwner 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tasman man 742 Report post Posted May 7, 2021 2 hours ago, john legend said: Having bred many horses over years the profit potential is simply being eroded by acceptance of $4000 to $6000 sales of quality weanlings by the studs that try to have it both ways .they want payment plus add ons for breeding a foal then accept lower prices for selling their own progeny from their own mares.It is good for those that want to race horses (very tempting)but expect even lower mares bred this season .. by private breeders. To John and others who maybe resent the 'big studs'. If breeding horses to make money is so easy we would all be doing it........if its easy for the 'big studs' then lets join a co-op and get big. I very much doubt the 'big studs' make easy or excess profits . Seems to me their overheads would be huge........they seem to employ many staff , have big properties and the Stallions or semen don't come cheap. i have seen 'big studs' looking quite pale and unwell at sales time ! One exception would be the owner of Bettor's Delight who is a once in lifetime horse.....a Champion sire.....rated possibly as the best Stallion of any code/animal in the world. Good luck to that Stud ,but their next 10 or more could be average or duds. I note too that the 'big studs' sponsor many of the races and are giving back to the Sport continuously.......they are not just passing through and I cant see why we should resent them. Like any business they need cash flow so I see the hocking off of weanlings at unreserved prices as a way of giving cash flow to their business plus they save the holding costs of housing,vetting and feeding them for another year ...as well as the preparation costs. Hobby breeders should be that....a hobby.....if doing it for business or money making ,expect the competition from the 'big studs'. Yes ,Ive tried a little breeding.....co-bred several winners on the track [ galloping] , made zero from racing them and taken a bath from selling them....not even got the Stud fee back at Sale ! JJ Flash 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalboy 32 Report post Posted May 7, 2021 On 5/5/2021 at 10:18 AM, Flawed Genius said: The big studs continue to talk up the success of their weanling sale but the numbers tell an "interesting" story. Take Bruce Negus for example, the biggest buyer on the day. His purchases at Karaka were : Lot 1 What The Hill – On the Mantelpiece Filly $3,000 (service fee $7000) Lot 22 Downbytheseaside – So Many Words Colt $4000 (service fee $6000) Lot 29 Majestic Son – Susan Colt $9000 (service fee $5000) Lot 43 Sweet Lou – Yasmine Bromac Filly $4000 (service fee $7500) Lot 47 Sweet Lou – Arden’s Pearl Filly $4000 (service fee $7500) Lot 73 A Rocknroll Dance – Chevelle Star Colt $2000 (service fee $5000) Lot 75 Ultimate Machete – Cracka Dawn Colt $3000 (service fee $3000) Lot 95 Downbytheseaside – G B Blaze Colt $4000 (service fee $6000) Lot 101 What The Hill – KC Spur Filly $4000 (service fee $7000) Lot 129 Sweet Lou – Nicky’s Power Filly $3000 (service fee $7500) Total paid: $40,000 Service Fees: $61,500 For the average breeder to have brought these yearlings to market would cost a very conservative $100,000, yet the big studs were prepared to dump these yearlings on the market for $40,000, thereby undercutting their own clients (and devaluing their clients remaining stock). Who experienced success here? Certainly not the average breeder! Absolute disaster, only the big studs can sale cheap. Because it doesn’t cost them anything for service fees.. LongOwner 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flawed Genius 53 Report post Posted May 7, 2021 Economics lesson 101 for those that can't see the big picture problem with these stud sponsored weanling sales. The horse breeding business is really no different to any other business - you have wholesalers (studs), retailers (breeders) and customers (buyers). When the wholesalers (studs) start undercutting the retailers (breeders), the customers (buyers) are naturally going to buy directly from the wholesaler (at the weanling sales). This will result in many retailers (breeders) going out of business because their customers (buyers) can now buy their product in bulk directly from the wholesaler (at the weanling sales) at a much reduced price due to the wholesalers (studs) much lower costs (stud fees). ShiftingGround, LongOwner, john legend and 3 others 1 5 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
arjay 451 Report post Posted May 9, 2021 So the man buys 10, good luck with them, but I hope he get's 2 useful horses from that lot, maybe one top liner, then the purchases will be deemed good buying. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Piper 408 Report post Posted May 12, 2021 I see Victoria (Australia ) are looking at a 15% tax on the stallion fees (on all stallions serving mares in Victoria). The $2m expected is pencilled in to help race stakes. Might be passed on to the breeder and therefore less stock and prices at auction for buyers at weanlings sales might increase with more competition for them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nelli 432 Report post Posted May 12, 2021 IMO the Australian levy will handicap the small owner/breeders in Victoria as most of the stallions with superior genetics will become even more expensive. From what I've read it seems a poorly thought out concept that will make a bigger divide between the haves and have nots and lead to a further decline in horses bred. It could have benefits for NZ breeders selling yearlings as long as not using Aussie-based sires. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Piper 408 Report post Posted May 15, 2021 I see Shane Murphy of Mountain View Stud (Vic) was in negotiations with bringing Dancin Lou to Aussie. Due to the tax the stallion will now not be shuttling to Aussie. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Piper 408 Report post Posted May 16, 2021 You would think if this catches on it will stuff up bringing new sires in and ones that didn't get the numbers won't be back either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Piper 408 Report post Posted May 16, 2021 Also makes it awkward getting the free returns in Victoria if the stallions don't get shuttled. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
john legend 743 Report post Posted May 16, 2021 True Piper the studs without a stallion returning could mean a refund to the breeder. !!! and Trump was the greatest President ever.... lol Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Piper 408 Report post Posted May 17, 2021 5 hours ago, john legend said: True Piper the studs without a stallion returning could mean a refund to the breeder. !!! and Trump was the greatest President ever.... lol I gather you are referring to HRV (Harness Racing Victoria) not refunding the tax when no foal is produced. JJ Flash 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Piper 408 Report post Posted May 19, 2021 On 5/17/2021 at 12:29 PM, 2Piper said: I gather you are referring to HRV (Harness Racing Victoria) not refunding the tax when no foal is produced. This is what the VBA (Breeders Association ) put in there letter to HRA . 90 % of Victorian Breeders submitted that they do not support the tax/ levy. Also it was said that the fivernering body don' t have jusidiction in imposing it . JJ Flash and john legend 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...