HH88

Filly linebreeding.

Recommended Posts

The sisters Sweet Nymph and Sweet Spray provide some insight into how linebreeding to a son and daughter of a female ancestor may work best for fillies. Their multiple lines of Queen Mary are captured through the balanced linebreeding to Blink Bonny herself an Epsom Derby and Oaks winner. 

There is a view in linebreeding circles two female strains of a male ancestor also works for fillies. If there are examples of this method that have resulted in good racetrack performers please post their names here.

Of note: 

  • Queen Mary's linbreeding is similar to the that of the Bend Or/Macaroni cross.

  • Sweet Nymph is the 7th dam of promising Australian galloper  Ayrton.

Scan.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

HH88 --I will stick my neck out with a suggestion along the lines of your thinking. Derryn who is standing at Grangewilliam Stud is line bred to Easy Date. I am a fan of looking carefully at the damsire of a stallion, in this case Lonhro ( I'm a big fan of him). With Lonhro we get Eight Carat. Clive Harper said Eight Carat performed well with Nasrullah and his female line family.

Easy Date has 2 lines of Nasrullah so here is an opportunity to try breeding to two females which in theory should like each other.. 

 I am watching out for Derryn progeny with line(s) of Eight Carat in the dam side. There have been a couple in his first crop 

Time will tell if there is anything to the idea. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Three good Oncidium fillies out of Summertime mares, all with balanced linebreeding to Malva, plus Rydal and her full brother Kendal. Additionally Leilani and Oncide have balanced linebreeding to Electric Light. So, male and female strains of female ancestors plus the full brother/sister that would be expected to work equally well for both fillies and colts. (Of note Electric Light is the second dam of Arc Light - see Star Belle pedigree above)

Leilani.jpeg

Oncide.jpeg

Orchidra.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Show Gate has male and female strains of Admiration plus Sainfoin and his full sister Sierra. (Sainfoin was bred by Queen Victoria and won the Derby of his year)

Show Gate.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Linebreeding to a full brother and sister should suit both a colt or filly foal (assuming ti is one of the strongest lines)

Example of this method attached. 

Of note:

Diadem won the 1000 Guineas, ran second in the Oaks ,and won both the July Cup and Kings Stand Stakes - twice.

Diadumenos was rated as the best sprinter of his time.

Plume.jpeg

Surfers Paradise.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Black Caviar – Channeling Domino?

A clue may lie in her balanced linebreeding to five lines of Alcibiades.

However it is unlikely this on its own accounts for her racetrack career. 

Alcibiades sire Supremus is by Ultimus, who is intensely inbred 2m x 2 f to Domino who appears more than 50 times in Black Caviar's pedigree, a remarkable effort by a stallion who sired only 19 named foals.

Additionally Royal Academy's line of Bolero carries a male strain of Blackstock (Hanover – Mainnie Himyar) Mannie Himyar is Domino's full sister.

Snippets line of Misty Day carries Ariel whose second dam is Mannie Himyar, so now a male and female strain of Domino's full sister.

Further back Snippets tail line has a female strain of Yankee (Hanover – Correction) a full brother in blood to Blackstock. (Correction is another full sister to Domino)

Black Caviar.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sunline is linebred to Pardal and his ¾ sister Tellaris, which in turn provides a male and female strain of French Oaks winner Adargatis. The dams of Crepello and Better Honey are full sisters but unhelpfully, come through male strains.

Adargatis is correctly linebred to unbeaten Ormonde and full sister Ornament, and also carries a line of St. Angelo, a male strain of Agneta who's third dam Little Agnes is a full sister to Polly Agnes the second dam of both Ormonde and Ornament, but again female strains of a female ancestor. 

However the Crepuscule / Mieux Rouge double does provide a female strain of Agneta to balance St. Angelo's male strain which likely reinforces the Ormonde / Ornament presences.

Sunline.jpeg

Adargatis.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tidal Light's sire Diagramatic has male and female strains of Electric Light. 

Azores her dam has two male strains of Electric Rose (bringing forward the multiple lines of Electric Light) thus linebreeding to male and female strains of a female ancestor.

 

(Cut and paste from earlier in the thread,responses appreciated)

There is a view in linebreeding circles two female strains of a male ancestor also works for fillies. If there are examples of this method that have resulted in good racetrack performers please post their names here.

Tidal Light.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Goldikova's dam has the full sisters Eclair and Infra Red who are out of Black Ray. Anabaa's dam line carries Jacopo who is the male strain of Black Ray, thus male and female strains of a female ancestor likely to best suit a filly.

Of note:

Black Ray is also the fifth dam of Mill Reef and the seventh dam of Lady's Secret.

Goldikova.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

In this case you are duplicating sadler’s wells through two daughters…two daughters of sadler’s wells = 2 X chromosomes (plus other genetics) of SW in the mix…as a stallion SW was one of the greatest off all time for classic horses… and a bit like Northern Dancer, can you have too much of him in a pedigree? (or aka lots of great genetics) …. 

Don’t get too academic about it… perhaps look at the type you have in front of you and ask “ do I have an athletic type”? what have I thrown back to? I look at the colour and use that to guess (based on probability) where the unseen genetics have thrown too…it just increases your chances of that being SW genetics…

Others can add more about filly or colt implications 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is a filly, the sires damsire, and the damsire’s direct female line descendant… gives a pointer as to where the genetics MAY have come from in the individual in front of you….

PS it’s all probability only…

6BDC8FD2-2E3B-45A0-8D41-15A98B0E57E4.jpeg

08FF6640-0596-4BA1-B95D-1A526D29B158.png

BD171127-CBF0-4CF1-B5C2-6BF6E4195951.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From a pedigree theory or academic point of view I think the cross looks OK. Further back you have two dams of Sir Ivor. Two dams of His Majesty. Also a sire and dam of the mare Kerala (a US broodmare of the year in 1967). All these are so called filly factors to go with your SW filly factor.

Given the dams racing performance --best results over 1600 -2200m , on paper it looks like you could have an Oaks type filly.

But as Dopey says, have a very good look at the type in front of you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was actually looking from a potential buyers POV. I really like Time Test (by Dubawi, strong female line, genuine horse, 4 Stakes Winners at 2 from that first UK crop).

Good luck with your SS filly. I hope she finishes the way her Dad did in the Caufield Guineas! What is the mares name?

Cheers, Matt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Mattski said:

I was actually looking from a potential buyers POV. I really like Time Test (by Dubawi, strong female line, genuine horse, 4 Stakes Winners at 2 from that first UK crop).

Good luck with your SS filly. I hope she finishes the way her Dad did in the Caufield Guineas! What is the mares name?

Cheers, Matt

Super Seth ex Turf Fire (by Oreilly)…late oct foal 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Herewith three good fillies with shared common elements in their pedigrees and similar linebreeding outcomes (despite Quija Board being bred on the other side of the world)

Happyanunoit : Yachtie has two female strains of Sirenia and the dam provides the male strain of her full sister Hammerkop.

Sea Change : Cape Cross has a male strain of Scylla and the dam a female strain of her full sister Electra.

Quija Board : As for Sea Change except in this case the female strain of Electra comes through Salmon-Trout rather than Salmagundi in Sea Change. 

In each case a male and female strain of a female ancestor likely to best suit a filly. 

 

Of interest and to quote Sir Charles Leicester's Bloodstock Breeding - “Scylla was a full sister to the 1000 Guineas winner Electra (who produced Orpheus. An evil tempered horse and a bad sire) and Salamandra (won three races. Second in the Oaks and third in the 1000 Guineas. Dam of the St. Leger winner Salmon-Trout) Their dam Sirenia won nine good-class races and was the ancestress of both Snow Marten (Oaks) and Comrade (Grand Prix de Paris) She was a full sister to the Cesarewitch winner Hammerkop (dam of the Derby winner Spion Kop) 

Happyanunoit.jpeg

Sea Change.jpeg

Quija Board.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fifinella became the fourth filly in the history of the Turf to achieve the double, defeating the colts in the 1916 renewal of the Derby and wining the Oaks. 

(The preceding three were Eleanor 1801, Blink Bonny in 1857, and Signorinetta in 1908)

The pedigree demonstrates firstly the method of linebreeding that works for both colts and fillies – i.e. linebreeding to a full brother and sister, and secondly how the methods of linebreeding in good racers have not changed over the centuries.

Her full brother Silvern won nine races, and ran second in the St. Leger before taking up stud duties at the National Stud. 

Fifinella.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Breeder

This should clarify:

[       )  Full brother - eg Catton

(      ]  Full sister – eg Miss Catton

<      >  3/4

[      ]  Full brothers – eg Stockwell and Rataplan.

The important part of the pedigree is the Catton / Miss Catton linebreeding.

Interestingly Fifinella's dam was mated with Lemberg who also caries 4 lines of Catton thus duplicating the the linebreeding to Miss Catton. The resultant filly  Soubriquet won five races and ran second in both the 1000 Guineas and Oaks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.