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On 3/21/2021 at 5:52 PM, We're Doomed said:

I was just having a look at the Oaks which I didn't get to see yesterday. I don't think anyone has mentioned it here. Llanacord looked very unlucky, with a clear run she would have been right in it. Admittedly she did have a nice run all the way, except in the straight.

That track looked a bit rough. We just don't seem to be able to present the pristine racing surfaces that most of the Aussie clubs come up with.

Yeh really unlucky being held up in the straight. Going to be a good horse going forward. 

Another unlucky one was Bonham in the Guineas. Checked early then got into a poor posy . Plenty of options here. The Easter Hdcp seems to be the way it’s going. 

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13 minutes ago, Memphis3 said:

Yeh really unlucky being held up in the straight. Going to be a good horse going forward. 

Another unlucky one was Bonham in the Guineas. Checked early then got into a poor posy . Plenty of options here. The Easter Hdcp seems to be the way it’s going. 

THE unluckiest runnier in the Guineas - for me - was All Black Bourbon (5th). Another 100m and he'd have had them on toast.
1600m next time and with any more give in the ground he is a VGVB (Very Good Value Bet) 

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4 hours ago, Pam Robson said:

So, why don't they apply a wee bit of that largesse to the K.M. stakes, instead of sucking off the NZTR tit?

They are obviously entitled to get what they are entitled to. That surely doesn’t take anything away from their business acumen does it? I would have thought thats an issue for NZTR. Your comment Pam reeks of the TPS that exists in NZ and Aust. I think you could have used different words to convey your message? Perhaps, “Due to the fiscal prudence and long term forward planning , something many would suggest has been missing at NZTR for many years, perhaps ARC no longer needs such support from NZTR and any funding should be reviewed”.  But really, if they are entitled to it then they shouldn’t be penalised for being successful. It’s an issue for NZTR - if it is an issue. JMHO

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3 minutes ago, Trump said:

They are obviously entitled to get what they are entitled to.............  But really, if they are entitled to it then they shouldn’t be penalised for being successful. It’s an issue for NZTR - if it is an issue. JMHO

Could you just explain to the rest of us why the ARC is entitled to a $600,000 subsidy from the rest of the country for a couple of restricted entry sales based races? Races that have destroyed the whole pattern of age group racing in the country and should eventally cost several races their current group status.

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41 minutes ago, We're Doomed said:

Could you just explain to the rest of us why the ARC is entitled to a $600,000 subsidy from the rest of the country for a couple of restricted entry sales based races? Races that have destroyed the whole pattern of age group racing in the country and should eventally cost several races their current group status.

I can’t answer that question for you as I’m not privy to the arrangements of that funding. I’m not commenting so much on the funding. All I’m saying is that ARC shouldn’t be condemned or penalised for being so fiscally responsible. Sure they have made mistakes. Some would say that their $2m gift to Counties to upgrade their training track was a mistake. But if NZTR are prepared to fund successful Clubs then why should they be looked down on? Question NZTR’s use of funds by all means, but don’t blame ARC. 

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12 minutes ago, Trump said:

I can’t answer that question for you as I’m not privy to the arrangements of that funding. I’m not commenting so much on the funding. All I’m saying is that ARC shouldn’t be condemned or penalised for being so fiscally responsible. Sure they have made mistakes. Some would say that their $2m gift to Counties to upgrade their training track was a mistake. But if NZTR are prepared to fund successful Clubs then why should they be looked down on? Question NZTR’s use of funds by all means, but don’t blame ARC. 

The fiscal responsibility you speak of , has been gifted to them by the rest of the industry and in some cases to the detriment of the rest of the industry. Not sure why you can't see that. 

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2 hours ago, We're Doomed said:

Could you just explain to the rest of us why the ARC is entitled to a $600,000 subsidy from the rest of the country for a couple of restricted entry sales based races? Races that have destroyed the whole pattern of age group racing in the country and should eventally cost several races their current group status.

This argument has gotten very tedious.....same ole same ole.....been setting you off for years .

If DEllis exudes positivity , you WD certainly do your best to negate that and have the usual suspects as support.

Firstly your use of the word subsidy ...some of your sidekicks use the word 'gift' ....is somewhat misleading.

It is in fact 'funding' from NZTR and 'extra funding 'from NZTR...............all clubs receive it from NZTR and obviously some receive more than others !

How much funding received is obviously based on the level of racing ,level of performance , facilities and how the Clubs fit into the 'master plan' currently and into the future.

The NZTR strategic plan has a number key initiatives and these go into the mixing bowl as well and the funding document comes out . As in life there are different levels of racing and funding reflects that.

I believe there are 14 Iconic NZ races which receive the most funding...Auckland runs 5 of these along with Canterbury ,Wellington, HBay maybe 1 other.

The 2 x Karaka races are part of the 5 .

Secondly , I doubt $600k is NZTR funded  for the two........check your facts !

I believe it is $250k  each for the two races...this amount goes to other Clubs races as well....in fact the Telegraph only pays the NZTR amount $250k ,the club pays nothing. Ditto the Hawkes Bay Livamol race.

The Oaks last Saturday was funded $360k by NZTR the Club paid $40k only.

Auckland get the most funding ,they pay the most stakes and pay over $1mil that they need not ....they obviously charge Nom Fees etc on certain races and run their business well enough to have good cash flow and a strong balance sheet currently.

As I posted recently ,they seem to be setting the standard in NZ racing...leading the pack in many aspects.

To my eye they seem to be the biggest and best in NZ...they are the only International rated club in NZ.The Karaka meeting seems to be attended by an International audience and is a good shop window for NZ racing at that time of year. I havent been to all NZ tracks but I remain quite current  , I was at Pukekohe today !

You WD and some of your sidekicks should visit Ellerslie some time...its not perfect ,they still run $10 k maidens ,one can find some birdshit on the odd seat ,and sometimes the range of Champagne not exclusive enough !!

You WD recently said you preferred a WestCoast grass trotting track to attending Trentham .....the tearooms in particular tickled your fancy and you wax lyrical about poor old Waikouaiti losing their New Years date...head North and check things out.Take Huey too once he finds someone to hold the horse for the farrier !

One more thing.....the NZTR offers funding to 8 x Iconic meetings.......for Advertising the event.......ARC gets 4 of the 8 and HBay ,Wellington , Canterbury and Manawatu get 1 each. They have obviously done enough to receive this Funding.....not a subsidy or Gift .....its for Advertising ,Event management etc........$100 k each !

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Huey said:

The fiscal responsibility you speak of , has been gifted to them by the rest of the industry and in some cases to the detriment of the rest of the industry. Not sure why you can't see that. 

You talk crap and fail to recognise they are the best managed Club by far in NZ. Their retention of land for long term benefit should be applauded. Unlike many other Clubs who have not had the same long term vision. They have made mistakes sure - but that’s what people in action do, in business or sport, because they are doing things with that long term vision. 
you need to see that for your own good. They have tried to join up with Avondale, they supported Counties financially and what have they got from them? Nothing because they have got little to offer and paddle their own selfish canoe. ARC will be operating long after you and I are gone because they have a vision, and going by Tasman Man’s post and his reference to The Oaks and the miserable $40k the Club put in, I think you need to fact check. Anyway, it’s obvious the ARC have their detractors but that’s part and parcel of the TPS. Not sure why you can’t see that?

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Yes Tasman Man you are factually correct but you conveniently forget one thing.

The main gripe is that the two one million dollar races are closed shopsales company races, primarily funded by subscription, but propped up by $500,000 of industry funds from a body that can’t afford it. 

When I questioned it, of Bernard Saundry he said that NZTR was contractually committed so even if the new board and management didn’t agree they couldn’t do anything about it at the moment.

That’s the main gripe by many as NZTR are broke, stakes are an absolute joke in this day and age, yet they are committed to giving out half a million to a closed shop. 

In a word it’s wrong, think many of us. 
 

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5 hours ago, Trump said:

 The Oaks and the miserable $40k the Club put in, I think you need to fact check. 

That is $40,000 more than Auckland put into their races. Their $1m races receive $50,000 as a listed race and $250,000 as a "gift" from the rest of the industry. The rest of the money comes from the sweepstake funded by owners.

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8 hours ago, tasman man said:

This argument has gotten very tedious.....same ole same ole.....been setting you off for years .

If DEllis exudes positivity , you WD certainly do your best to negate that and have the usual suspects as support.

Firstly your use of the word subsidy ...some of your sidekicks use the word 'gift' ....is somewhat misleading.

It is in fact 'funding' from NZTR and 'extra funding 'from NZTR...............all clubs receive it from NZTR and obviously some receive more than others !

How much funding received is obviously based on the level of racing ,level of performance , facilities and how the Clubs fit into the 'master plan' currently and into the future.

The NZTR strategic plan has a number key initiatives and these go into the mixing bowl as well and the funding document comes out . As in life there are different levels of racing and funding reflects that.

I believe there are 14 Iconic NZ races which receive the most funding...Auckland runs 5 of these along with Canterbury ,Wellington, HBay maybe 1 other.

The 2 x Karaka races are part of the 5 .

Secondly , I doubt $600k is NZTR funded  for the two........check your facts !

I believe it is $250k  each for the two races...this amount goes to other Clubs races as well....in fact the Telegraph only pays the NZTR amount $250k ,the club pays nothing. Ditto the Hawkes Bay Livamol race.

The Oaks last Saturday was funded $360k by NZTR the Club paid $40k only.

Auckland get the most funding ,they pay the most stakes and pay over $1mil that they need not ....they obviously charge Nom Fees etc on certain races and run their business well enough to have good cash flow and a strong balance sheet currently.

As I posted recently ,they seem to be setting the standard in NZ racing...leading the pack in many aspects.

To my eye they seem to be the biggest and best in NZ...they are the only International rated club in NZ.The Karaka meeting seems to be attended by an International audience and is a good shop window for NZ racing at that time of year. I havent been to all NZ tracks but I remain quite current  , I was at Pukekohe today !

You WD and some of your sidekicks should visit Ellerslie some time...its not perfect ,they still run $10 k maidens ,one can find some birdshit on the odd seat ,and sometimes the range of Champagne not exclusive enough !!

You WD recently said you preferred a WestCoast grass trotting track to attending Trentham .....the tearooms in particular tickled your fancy and you wax lyrical about poor old Waikouaiti losing their New Years date...head North and check things out.Take Huey too once he finds someone to hold the horse for the farrier !

One more thing.....the NZTR offers funding to 8 x Iconic meetings.......for Advertising the event.......ARC gets 4 of the 8 and HBay ,Wellington , Canterbury and Manawatu get 1 each. They have obviously done enough to receive this Funding.....not a subsidy or Gift .....its for Advertising ,Event management etc........$100 k each !

 

 

 

 

Thank you for your extensive reply Tas. I don't really agree with most of it, but everyone is entitled to their opinion on here. Obviously people have differing views and in many ways that is a healthy sign. It is much better than people not caring about the state of the industry at all. As long as we don't resort to personal abuse, long may these debates continue. I enjoy the input from a range of people, many with an extensive industry back ground.

The only thing that disappoints me is that no one from NZTR ever comes on here to clarify some of their actions and interact with industry participants. I would love to ask them some really straight forward questions along the lines of "why does the last horse home in a 14 horse race get a starters fee, but the last horse home in a 15 horse race gets nothing?". Really simple aspects of the industry like that fascinate me. It would take someone from NZTR 30 seconds to answer it.

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Leo's old mate GeeP you know the bloke before Bernard S told me that if Ellerslie folded that would be the end of racing in NZ.

Committees come and committees go and their abilities range from good to poor hence the level of success. There is self interest always from minding the shop to take from others. Ellerslie has been no exception in the past. The present board and CEO I believe are assets to NZ racing

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You only have to see the success of the Magic Millions, Everest, Kosciusko, All Stars Mile, etc and get a lesson. They are lauded by the entire Aust Racing Industry. Support for these types of races (Qld govt sunk about $35m into MM on the Gold Coast for stakes) is massive, the public interest is massive, course attendance is massive. At this years Gold Coast MM, the Skyline Lounge dining lounge was $750 per person ( normal Sat about $150) and it sold out within a couple of hours bookings opened.

These races drag the races up to another level and pressure stakes increases in all races behind them. The $5m All Star Mile was born because of the Everest. Originally, the VRC were pissed off but it forced them to get of their lazy butts and stop poncing around like prims thinking they are racing’s leaders. V’Landys showed them they weren’t. Racing is better for it and it’s caused stakes increases at every level.

And Mr Burrows, Specsavers may be your next best move if you can’t see that this is the root cause of NZ racing being under pressure.  It’s treading water and knocking ARC is definitely not the answer. The races behind these KM type races need lifting as do all the other races down to maidens. That’s NZ’s problem. Many suggest and are agreed with that there’s been a lotta $ wasted by the Bodies, but it certainly can’t be at Auckland. 
I would be embracing the KM concept and force Stakes up elsewhere. Imagine if the G1Sires Produce was worth $1m. Would that be a target? 

NZ has an underlying huge Stakes issue (amongst others!). The Australian Racing Industry scattered among so many State Jurisdictions had similar problems until V’Landys lit the firecracker. All the others got off their arses and racing is now surging ahead. Even Racecafe runs its best comps by incl Aust racing. Have a look at the Golden Slipper meeting. What a beauty. No Winx but new stars and plenty of $ and interest on offer! 
Mr Burrows you need to move into the future. The KM type races should be the catalyst for raising the bar across the Board in NZ. But this can only happen with support from Racing NZ, Govt and the Industry itself. The fact that you see the sweepstakes as “The Main Gripe”, shows you don’t get it and are living in the past. Someone like yourself, a passionate racing man with skin the game, should see the Aussie example and embrace it. Get out of your WRC suit and open your eyes or races like the 2yo Wakefield will really lose all its status. 
Major change is needed in NZ - everyone knows that. ARC, Sweepstakes Races etc have not caused these need for change. A combination of bad management and poor decision making at a high level has been the major cause.

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1 hour ago, We're Doomed said:

Thank you for your extensive reply Tas. I don't really agree with most of it, but everyone is entitled to their opinion on here. Obviously people have differing views and in many ways that is a healthy sign. It is much better than people not caring about the state of the industry at all. As long as we don't resort to personal abuse, long may these debates continue. I enjoy the input from a range of people, many with an extensive industry back ground.

The only thing that disappoints me is that no one from NZTR ever comes on here to clarify some of their actions and interact with industry participants. I would love to ask them some really straight forward questions along the lines of "why does the last horse home in a 14 horse race get a starters fee, but the last horse home in a 15 horse race gets nothing?". Really simple aspects of the industry like that fascinate me. It would take someone from NZTR 30 seconds to answer it.

30 seconds sounds very optimistic WD.....😉

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8 hours ago, Trump said:

You talk crap and fail to recognise they are the best managed Club by far in NZ. Their retention of land for long term benefit should be applauded. Unlike many other Clubs who have not had the same long term vision. They have made mistakes sure - but that’s what people in action do, in business or sport, because they are doing things with that long term vision. 
you need to see that for your own good. They have tried to join up with Avondale, they supported Counties financially and what have they got from them? Nothing because they have got little to offer and paddle their own selfish canoe. ARC will be operating long after you and I are gone because they have a vision, and going by Tasman Man’s post and his reference to The Oaks and the miserable $40k the Club put in, I think you need to fact check. Anyway, it’s obvious the ARC have their detractors but that’s part and parcel of the TPS. Not sure why you can’t see that?

You talk crap because you are naïve and assume that it is a level playing field across club land in NZ , when it is anything but. You make assumptions that the likes of Avondale have been afforded the same opportunities that the ARC have , when they clearly have not. Have you ever sat back and wondered why Avondale appear selfish?

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2 hours ago, Nerula said:

Leo's old mate GeeP you know the bloke before Bernard S told me that if Ellerslie folded that would be the end of racing in NZ.

 

I don't believe that for a second. Racing would more than likely readjust its outputs to meet its inputs which is what should be happening in this country in the first place.

There a lot of people in NZ who just enjoy the sport and don't need fabricated races , swollen PR , hyped up marketing and overpriced shenanigans to enjoy it .

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3 minutes ago, Huey said:

You talk crap because you are naïve and assume that it is a level playing field across club land in NZ , when it is anything but. You make assumptions that the likes of Avondale have been afforded the same opportunities that the ARC have , when they clearly have not. Have you ever sat back and wondered why Avondale appear selfish?

Then why didn’t Avondale merge with Auckland when the opportunity came. Golf Clubs merge, race clubs merge, football clubs merge etc. By not merging, the ones that suffered were the Members. Their main races are held at Ellerslie now anyway. 

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2 hours ago, Trump said:

You only have to see the success of the Magic Millions, Everest, Kosciusko, All Stars Mile, etc and get a lesson. They are lauded by the entire Aust Racing Industry. Support for these types of races (Qld govt sunk about $35m into MM on the Gold Coast for stakes) is massive, the public interest is massive, course attendance is massive. At this years Gold Coast MM, the Skyline Lounge dining lounge was $750 per person ( normal Sat about $150) and it sold out within a couple of hours bookings opened.

 

I'm not sure why you are quoting these very successful Australian initiatives that have in some form been copied over here ? Everyone knows they are successful in Australia , because guess what they can afford them and have got their house in such an order that their industry is economically able to make them viable without disturbing or at a cost to the rest of industry. In NZ we have been far from being in a position to that , but we try to replicate these initiatives as a fabricated shop window for the industry at the expense of the rest of the industry and they way we are doing it cannot go on forever.

 

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4 minutes ago, Trump said:

Then why didn’t Avondale merge with Auckland when the opportunity came. Golf Clubs merge, race clubs merge, football clubs merge etc. By not merging, the ones that suffered were the Members. Their main races are held at Ellerslie now anyway. 

Perhaps they wanted to keep their club, perhaps they wanted their races back , perhaps they wanted an opportunity and a fair suck of the sav from the industry , I can't answer that. 

But what I do find amusing is people like yourself and the industry is full of them that just assume a club or racetrack should fold because they believe its the right thing to do for the industry. No empirical analysis, empathy for the club in question nothing just an opinion that everyone should sell up because its big ol' Ellerslie. If that doesn't give you an indication of how bad things are then nothing will.

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3 minutes ago, Huey said:

I don't believe that for a second. Racing would more than likely readjust its outputs to meet its inputs which is what should be happening in this country in the first place.

There a lot of people in NZ who just enjoy the sport and don't need fabricated races , swollen PR , hyped up marketing and overpriced shenanigans to enjoy it .

Huey, you are living in the past. You probably still use pen and paper, or perhaps graduated to a typewriter? Old habits die hard. Mine is still to sit down with a copy of The Australian and read it while enjoying my freshly grounded Vittoria Coffee Bean homemade coffee. I do this even though I’ve read every good news story earlier - from my iPhone. As I say, old habits :) 

I understand 100% where you’re coming from, I really do. I used to love going to the Feilding races. They are still going strong but at Awapuni. They wouldn’t have survived if they’d stayed at their Feilding track. But mate, keep the tradition but move with times. That’s what’s holding NZ Racing back. It’s a bit like Ireland. A good btreeding ground but most of the good horses racing offshore for the big $. Going to the races at The Curragh reminded me of going to Trentham. Great tracks - old and poor amenities. 
Enjoy your racing. 

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