RaceCafe..#1...Tipsters Thread.... Share Your Fancies For Fun...Lets See Who The Best Tipsters Here Are.
Augusta

Weight For Age Scale

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Will probably start a gender fight here but here goes. Avantage gets a 2kg? allowance for being a female in Otaki WFA. Wins by 3/4 length under a ride. If she had 2kgs more Callsign Mav wins?

Spot the common denominator here of recent stars. Sunline, Black Caviar, Melody Belle, Avantage, Winx. Calm down I'm not saying they are all equal.

Yes they were all mares who won mainly WFA races getting a 2 kg allowance ( varies at time of year).

They would have been stars anyhow, but would not have won as many races.

Is it time the fillies and mares got no allowance?

WFA scale is not infalliable. 3yos get a huge advantage. Sometimes not a top 3yo wins WFA. There is a 3kg jump when horse goes from 3yo to 4yo in August.

So no allowance for females? What do u think?

 

 

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2 hours ago, Augusta said:

Will probably start a gender fight here but here goes. Avantage gets a 2kg? allowance for being a female in Otaki WFA. Wins by 3/4 length under a ride. If she had 2kgs more Callsign Mav wins?

Spot the common denominator here of recent stars. Sunline, Black Caviar, Melody Belle, Avantage, Winx. Calm down I'm not saying they are all equal.

Yes they were all mares who won mainly WFA races getting a 2 kg allowance ( varies at time of year).

They would have been stars anyhow, but would not have won as many races.

Is it time the fillies and mares got no allowance?

WFA scale is not infalliable. 3yos get a huge advantage. Sometimes not a top 3yo wins WFA. There is a 3kg jump when horse goes from 3yo to 4yo in August.

So no allowance for females? What do u think?

 

 

Just out of interest, I can't remember the last time a 3yo won a major WFA in NZ.

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2 hours ago, Augusta said:

Will probably start a gender fight here but here goes. Avantage gets a 2kg? allowance for being a female in Otaki WFA. Wins by 3/4 length under a ride. If she had 2kgs more Callsign Mav wins?

Spot the common denominator here of recent stars. Sunline, Black Caviar, Melody Belle, Avantage, Winx. Calm down I'm not saying they are all equal.

Yes they were all mares who won mainly WFA races getting a 2 kg allowance ( varies at time of year).

They would have been stars anyhow, but would not have won as many races.

Is it time the fillies and mares got no allowance?

WFA scale is not infalliable. 3yos get a huge advantage. Sometimes not a top 3yo wins WFA. There is a 3kg jump when horse goes from 3yo to 4yo in August.

So no allowance for females? What do u think?

 

 

Seems to be the new norm in all facets of life Augusta. You know the mantra "we are equal to men and need to be treated as equal.P.S. but in reality we are not so we need a few concessions"😆 A bit like NZPGA in it's new incarnation--men and women (and any undecideds) play together at the same time but the women from tees approximately 20% shorter than the men's tees (Muriwai Open ) and everyone is supposed to be excited when some of the weaker dears place in the top 10! This in spite of Women's long-driving world champion and female pro Phyllis Meti being able to knock it out there further than most of the men. So who decided women were inherently 20% weaker than the men? Probably some BS decision driven by female leadership at helm of NZPGA.

Anyway a pretty f---kd up world and only getting worse with gender denial, tokenism etc and getting back to mares and fillies--Why is 2kg the gold standard? Why not based on bodyweight??(Empire Rose, Sunline), Stride length?? Height at wither??Number of Group wins before it is lost?? 1KG?? Why not 5KG??

Wouldn't hurt to re-visit the apparent anachronism. Surely wouldn't upset the breeders??

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To be fair the whole pattern of racing is changing in this part of the world. Stakes money is generally so good these days that mares tend to race on, whereas previously anything with decent breeding would be retired at the end of their 4yo career. Colts on the other hand get retired during their 3yo career so as not to harm their stud value. They are already talking of retiring the two beaten favs in yesterday's guineas. So the colts that previously would have raced on in WFA company are now at stud earning millions per year.

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54 minutes ago, We're Doomed said:

To be fair the whole pattern of racing is changing in this part of the world. Stakes money is generally so good these days that mares tend to race on, whereas previously anything with decent breeding would be retired at the end of their 4yo career. Colts on the other hand get retired during their 3yo career so as not to harm their stud value. They are already talking of retiring the two beaten favs in yesterday's guineas. So the colts that previously would have raced on in WFA company are now at stud earning millions per year.

Not to mention anything half decent here is shopped aboard and a good chance of gelded and gone . The mares situation here is amplified by the lack of decent male horses imho . Looking at that Derby field will any see what way the place getters went in big three races of a Melbourne Spring . I doubt it but the real good NZ bred males do a very good job in HK Derby in past few years .

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5 hours ago, Augusta said:

Will probably start a gender fight here but here goes. Avantage gets a 2kg? allowance for being a female in Otaki WFA. Wins by 3/4 length under a ride. If she had 2kgs more Callsign Mav wins?

Spot the common denominator here of recent stars. Sunline, Black Caviar, Melody Belle, Avantage, Winx. Calm down I'm not saying they are all equal.

Yes they were all mares who won mainly WFA races getting a 2 kg allowance ( varies at time of year).

They would have been stars anyhow, but would not have won as many races.

Is it time the fillies and mares got no allowance?

WFA scale is not infalliable. 3yos get a huge advantage. Sometimes not a top 3yo wins WFA. There is a 3kg jump when horse goes from 3yo to 4yo in August.

So no allowance for females? What do u think?

 

 

WFA While not perfect is the best system of handicapping,the best horses win as 3yos with the advantage and as older horses without,age group and maidens have the same 2kg allowance,is there a bias or unfair advantage?  It raises the question of elite horses having their careers extended by WFA races and not being weighted out of everything ,why do we not conduct ALL races at WFA and stop ANY horse ever having its career cut off by weight,extend the careers of many more horses,also WFA races are usually run and won in line with the ratings,better for punters?better for turnover?

 

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6 minutes ago, Nukkledragga said:

  It raises the question of elite horses having their careers extended by WFA races and not being weighted out of everything ,

 

Well for elite mares anyway! (And before you accuse me of bias against mares I have raced mostly mares and still cannot see the justification for a life-long advantage of 2kg) Maybe someone can explain, and also argue why a decreasing weight differential a bit like diminishing apprentice allowances would not be preferable before a few select mares get away with all the stake money.

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29 minutes ago, Nukkledragga said:

WFA While not perfect is the best system of handicapping,the best horses win as 3yos with the advantage and as older horses without,age group and maidens have the same 2kg allowance,is there a bias or unfair advantage?  It raises the question of elite horses having their careers extended by WFA races and not being weighted out of everything ,why do we not conduct ALL races at WFA and stop ANY horse ever having its career cut off by weight,extend the careers of many more horses,also WFA races are usually run and won in line with the ratings,better for punters?better for turnover?

 

Are you saying all races WFA , even midweek plodders ? , that would destroy betting and send the vast majority of horses to the big retirement paddock . There has to be some banding system and rating system for the majority of racing .

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1 hour ago, Red Rum said:

Are you saying all races WFA , even midweek plodders ? , that would destroy betting and send the vast majority of horses to the big retirement paddock . There has to be some banding system and rating system for the majority of racing .

I think it would make betting better,and midweek plodders would have more of a future.Handicappers would still have a part to play but would only award points not kilos,horses would go up or down ratings according to their performances but weight would not hinder any progress,horses would essentially carry the same weight relative to their opposition for their entire  career,and betting should be better overall if more races are won by the best horses as happens currently under WFA ,then money will be reinvested by more punters.It is my view that it would make average divvies smaller but that means more winners,more reinvestment,more turnover with more confident punters

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but we are so bottom heavy, we give no encouragement for horses to gradually climb grades, or have an appropriate band of rating races to encourage horses to race on.

Surely our biggest priority should be introducing rating 50, 55, 60-65 races? and start pushing some horses through the grades?

additionally, the mares allowance is too much in wfa. i think it should surely be 1kg allowance i think would be fair. 

 

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49 minutes ago, Varro said:

but we are so bottom heavy, we give no encouragement for horses to gradually climb grades, or have an appropriate band of rating races to encourage horses to race on.

Surely our biggest priority should be introducing rating 50, 55, 60-65 races? and start pushing some horses through the grades?

additionally, the mares allowance is too much in wfa. i think it should surely be 1kg allowance i think would be fair. 

 

There are always more slow horses than fast ones. Over here you could put on a card of eight 46-60 rated races and you'd get big fields and betting opportunities every time but is it simply all about quantity and betting - is there no room for quality?

The dilemma is there aren't enough "good" races to support a strong programme of quality races - even at the top handicap levels, the horse population can't support the races programmed - the option is either to accept small fields or lower the quality of the handicaps to bring in more runners.

As for the mares or fillies' allowance, I'm inclines to agree - it's 5 lbs up here and there's been plenty of debate about it. There seems a growing view if a filly wanted to take on the colts in the Derby for example, they should run on level weights.

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32 minutes ago, Trump said:

Ask yourselves. “Why are the best Champion horses of the last 20 years - female? 
 

Northerly, Lohnro, starcraft, frankel, dundeel, apache cat, takeover target, buffering, fields of omagh, weekend hustler, chataqua, so you think,

id add Karasi, absolute iron horse.

think we are reading a bit too much into this male and female stuff. the term champion is so loosely used. I heard bevan sweeney refer to advantage as a champion after her win at Otaki, i thought that was a really dumb statement, shes done nothing yet which compares to the list above, or her female counterparts like sunline, winx, atlantic jewel to only name a few.

whilst there have been some amazing girls grace the track, the blokes havent exactly been letting us down either.

the term champion is so loosely used and is rather subjective.  

but the blokes are doing ok id say, we are just lucky to have also been blessed with some freaks in the last decade such as black caviar and winx

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1 hour ago, Varro said:

Northerly, Lohnro, starcraft, frankel, dundeel, apache cat, takeover target, buffering, fields of omagh, weekend hustler, chataqua, so you think,

id add Karasi, absolute iron horse.

think we are reading a bit too much into this male and female stuff. the term champion is so loosely used. I heard bevan sweeney refer to advantage as a champion after her win at Otaki, i thought that was a really dumb statement, shes done nothing yet which compares to the list above, or her female counterparts like sunline, winx, atlantic jewel to only name a few.

whilst there have been some amazing girls grace the track, the blokes havent exactly been letting us down either.

the term champion is so loosely used and is rather subjective.  

but the blokes are doing ok id say, we are just lucky to have also been blessed with some freaks in the last decade such as black caviar and winx

All true Varro (and correct to call out Sweeney for his nonsense) but still doesn't answer the question of WHY the concession exists?

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1 hour ago, Gruff said:

Why fillies and mares don’t need a weight allowance at ... -...

www.thoroughbredracing.com/articles/why-fillies-mares dont...

A brief gander at this seems to show that the varying allowances have an equalizing effect,but do not seem to overdo it detrimentally,so tinkering up or down can be argued either way but it should remain in some form as no allowance would be detrimental.

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in my experence, and on average, the most distinct differences in maturity and development levels are at an early age, and from a racing perspective from ages 2 in particular and to 3, then from there the ledger tends to be far more even.

is a valid argument that concessions are restricted to 2 and 3 year old racing only?

 

 

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44 minutes ago, Varro said:

in my experence, and on average, the most distinct differences in maturity and development levels are at an early age, and from a racing perspective from ages 2 in particular and to 3, then from there the ledger tends to be far more even.

is a valid argument that concessions are restricted to 2 and 3 year old racing only?

 

 

Plenty of superior 2 and 3 yr old fillies--Ballroom Babe, La Mer, Tudorlight?,Katie Lee----

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