RaceCafe..#1...Tipsters Thread.... Share Your Fancies For Fun...Lets See Who The Best Tipsters Here Are.
Varro

TAB - did you offer BGP excusive fixed odds bet, and offset extragent price against the tote punter

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you advertise loyalty, ask punters to stick with you. But give only 1 of your customers, exclusive rights to a betting option, at the expense of all your other customers.

What was your take out on the tote quinella pool?

because i believe that was a slap in the face.

im all for vip options, and given size of bets, some warm fuzzys and arse slapping, but dont screw your backbone of punters.

I know you read this forum, can you please explain was your take out on the pool different to normal?

do you think it was unfair offering a price exclusively to one punter, that absolutely none of your other ccustomers could access? Given that there are also other large punters that trade with you.

On top of the generous offer to BGP, and exclusive odds at the expense of the tote (i presume) you offer a rebate and 25% worth of bonus bets.

At what cost to industry and punter.

If say hypothetically i could garner a group as big, with equal betting activity and sums, would you give me same treatment?

i think all punters who have been loyal to tab deserve some clarity.  As a result of this, it has now left me considering my alternatives.  

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33 minutes ago, Varro said:

you advertise loyalty, ask punters to stick with you. But give only 1 of your customers, exclusive rights to a betting option, at the expense of all your other customers.

What was your take out on the tote quinella pool?

because i believe that was a slap in the face.

im all for vip options, and given size of bets, some warm fuzzys and arse slapping, but dont screw your backbone of punters.

I know you read this forum, can you please explain was your take out on the pool different to normal?

do you think it was unfair offering a price exclusively to one punter, that absolutely none of your other ccustomers could access? Given that there are also other large punters that trade with you.

On top of the generous offer to BGP, and exclusive odds at the expense of the tote (i presume) you offer a rebate and 25% worth of bonus bets.

At what cost to industry and punter.

If say hypothetically i could garner a group as big, with equal betting activity and sums, would you give me same treatment?

i think all punters who have been loyal to tab deserve some clarity.  As a result of this, it has now left me considering my alternatives.  

I feel like ive seen this post somewhere else. TAB will not, nor should it divulge commercially sensitive info of the type you are after.

FFS it was a one off promo for a new product and a few want to make it out as some type of conspiracy. BGP were the obvious group to do it and what a great promo they are. for racing. Would you be making such post if the bet had lost??

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4 minutes ago, JJ Flash said:

I feel like ive seen this post somewhere else. TAB will not, nor should it divulge commercially sensitive info of the type you are after.

FFS it was a one off promo for a new product and a few want to make it out as some type of conspiracy. BGP were the obvious group to do it and what a great promo they are. for racing. Would you be making such post if the bet had lost??

It did lose...the TAB made up the shortfall bless their little hearts. How they lost on that day is another question.....

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10 minutes ago, JJ Flash said:

I feel like ive seen this post somewhere else. TAB will not, nor should it divulge commercially sensitive info of the type you are after.

FFS it was a one off promo for a new product and a few want to make it out as some type of conspiracy. BGP were the obvious group to do it and what a great promo they are. for racing. Would you be making such post if the bet had lost??

but JJ flash,

again and you dont seem to grasp this, and this potentially affected a number of tab customers, thousands of dollars worth, actually probably over half to 3 quarters of the entire quinella tote pool for this race.

lets say hypothetically, you were a winning punter via the tote, your only way to access this bet, but your return was substantially less than BGP.  And if say the tab did thi via using your money, the tote funds, to subsidize the return to 1 punter, then would you deem this fair?

in my opinion this is not fair, infact i think its a disgrace

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5 minutes ago, Varro said:

but JJ flash,

again and you dont seem to grasp this, and this potentially affected a number of tab customers, thousands of dollars worth, actually probably over half to 3 quarters of the entire quinella tote pool for this race.

lets say hypothetically, you were a winning punter via the tote, your only way to access this bet, but your return was substantially less than BGP.  And if say the tab did thi via using your money, the tote funds, to subsidize the return to 1 punter, then would you deem this fair?

in my opinion this is not fair, infact i think its a disgrace

Sometimes life ain't fair.

In most businesses big , elite customers get special deals unique to themselves...loyalty and volume does bring some benefits.

When I go to Mitre 10 for a packet of screws , I realise I wont be offered an extra bulk discount or a trip to Tahiti as per their elite customers.

Many times folk grizzle about the TAB bookies being far too skinny on FO options...cos of size of our market they sensibly try and restrict their exposure.

Bet what you like on the tote.

Get a group together , pool your cash and approach the TAB ......on a big day with $5 mill turnover they likely to accept a challenge to lose a few dollars ,but try on a day like today at Matamata and why would they ?

That quinella was all the talk the day prior to the big day ...and on the day....talk was everywhere , the best , cheapest and most effective Advertising the TAB and racing could have enjoyed.

And with 100m to go I actually thought the 3rd horse was closing fast enough to upset the result...it was no sure thing !

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The TAB is not up to scratch!!  I wish I could back with the TAB all the time but it is just not competitive.  

On a Saturday I like to do a 4 horse multi (cross cards etc), win and place.  If I put this on with an offshore bookie I can choose tote or fixed odds (can have one horse tote odds and three hrses fixed odds etc).  With the NZ TAB you can only chhose fixed odds and these are done at 136%.  This is crazy!!

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2 hours ago, tasman man said:

Sometimes life ain't fair.

In most businesses big , elite customers get special deals unique to themselves...loyalty and volume does bring some benefits.

When I go to Mitre 10 for a packet of screws , I realise I wont be offered an extra bulk discount or a trip to Tahiti as per their elite customers.

Many times folk grizzle about the TAB bookies being far too skinny on FO options...cos of size of our market they sensibly try and restrict their exposure.

Bet what you like on the tote.

Get a group together , pool your cash and approach the TAB ......on a big day with $5 mill turnover they likely to accept a challenge to lose a few dollars ,but try on a day like today at Matamata and why would they ?

That quinella was all the talk the day prior to the big day ...and on the day....talk was everywhere , the best , cheapest and most effective Advertising the TAB and racing could have enjoyed.

And with 100m to go I actually thought the 3rd horse was closing fast enough to upset the result...it was no sure thing !

i get that, and thats all fine and well.

but the tab is asking punters to stick with them. Saying they are loosing to much of their customers to offshore betting agencies. ok fair play, send a message, ask for loyalty.

but then dont piss on them, by subsidizing one punters bet with the tote. if you want people to stay loyal, prop up the tab, which in turn has all those positive consequences to our industry, then simple, dont rip off the punter.  A differential of nearly $1 per unit is a staggering differential.

again im all for special incentives, new schemes, and yes BGP is great for our industry, they are actually a blessing, but the tab already operates on a very high take out compared to other competitors, so i can only presume their take out would have been even higher.

that is my point, the exercise i believe was done at the expense of the punter. this is my main point. Given they are in desperate need of not just punting dollars, but more regular and loyal puntng dollars, if your gonna piss on all the punters that could only use the quinella pool, if they were to have known that before that race, and tab were gonna  probably a take out rate near 140 or so, possibly, then they probably wouldnt have invested. 

all you need to do is compare the payouts from the tab to other competitors t see that was an uncompetitive price that winning punters got via the tote. that is not fair.

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I think you have a very fair point. 

I like exacta and duet betting. Exacta I think is finally coming to TAB. I had a bit of a lash at the exacta in the Aegon race....Paid $7.60 on 365. Good money, good return, not that hard to pick. 

Quinella betting in NZ often quite a hard picking exercise, for quite low returns. 

TAB is a bit of a wagering backwater, if we are honest. 

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1 hour ago, Varro said:

i get that, and thats all fine and well.

but the tab is asking punters to stick with them. Saying they are loosing to much of their customers to offshore betting agencies. ok fair play, send a message, ask for loyalty.

but then dont piss on them, by subsidizing one punters bet with the tote. if you want people to stay loyal, prop up the tab, which in turn has all those positive consequences to our industry, then simple, dont rip off the punter.  A differential of nearly $1 per unit is a staggering differential.

again im all for special incentives, new schemes, and yes BGP is great for our industry, they are actually a blessing, but the tab already operates on a very high take out compared to other competitors, so i can only presume their take out would have been even higher.

that is my point, the exercise i believe was done at the expense of the punter. this is my main point. Given they are in desperate need of not just punting dollars, but more regular and loyal puntng dollars, if your gonna piss on all the punters that could only use the quinella pool, if they were to have known that before that race, and tab were gonna  probably a take out rate near 140 or so, possibly, then they probably wouldnt have invested. 

all you need to do is compare the payouts from the tab to other competitors t see that was an uncompetitive price that winning punters got via the tote. that is not fair.

I can see your point bit cant see why you and no doubt some others offended !

It was documented , upfront .....kinda a trial of the FO option soon to become available ....and it was an effective way IMO to get the 'new product' launched.

Advertising folk probably call it a teaser.

We agree BGP are an exciting movement for the future of NZ racing.......I'm not in core target group but I still joined and participate at times and wore my red sox with pride on Saturday.

To get 850 people into a room on Saturday and get a pool of $180 k to bet , no doubt took a lot of work.

In fact a ton of work with both the ARC and the TAB....I spoke with employees at the place and they said the room was buzzing and was the best day of the year !Most seemed real happy.

NZ TAB pools are generally small fry and as they restrict some punters ,no doubt they thought long and hard about how they went about the day.

Its kinda new...dealing with a Group like that.

This was ONE option on one race that has offended you !!!!!!

Its retailing ,its business....many businesses have deals for groups ,members and elite custmers.

Yes NZ racing needs Kiwis punting on TAB...otherwise it cant survive !

I went to the Garden Party on Saturday.....I saw a lot of flowers , so cant see the point on trampling on them to highlight the odd weed.

Aussie totes are so much bigger and financially stronger.

The NZ TAB can survive on Aussie racing and sports.

I ask you dont sell your arse to them !

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4 hours ago, Varro said:

but JJ flash,

again and you dont seem to grasp this, and this potentially affected a number of tab customers, thousands of dollars worth, actually probably over half to 3 quarters of the entire quinella tote pool for this race.

lets say hypothetically, you were a winning punter via the tote, your only way to access this bet, but your return was substantially less than BGP.  And if say the tab did thi via using your money, the tote funds, to subsidize the return to 1 punter, then would you deem this fair?

I dont get worked up about things i have no control over Varro. My read was its its a one off promo that they gave to a real positive group of NZ racing enthusiasts. I have no idea whether TAB did anything different with take outs {21%} or whether they laid some of it off into pari mutual pool as some have suggested. It was a one off event that a few on here thought was brilliant way to introducing a new betting option locally. 

The fact that its getting so much traction and click baits would suggest its mission accomplished from a promo perspective. If it puts you or others off betting on NZTAB then so be it. As i have said consistently, there are other options offshore but they are no better overall IMHO

Last comment/word goes to Tasman Man- i thought it quite succinct

26 minutes ago, tasman man said:

It was documented , upfront .....kinda a trial of the FO option soon to become available ....and it was an effective way IMO to get the 'new product' launched.

Advertising folk probably call it a teaser.

We agree BGP are an exciting movement for the future of NZ racing.......I'm not in core target group but I still joined and participate at times and wore my red sox with pride on Saturday.

To get 850 people into a room on Saturday and get a pool of $180 k to bet , no doubt took a lot of work.

In fact a ton of work with both the ARC and the TAB....I spoke with employees at the place and they said the room was buzzing and was the best day of the year !Most seemed real happy.

 

 

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i respect your opinion, we differ, thats ok.

we reach a stalemate. yes its generated aot of attention, and the tab will be stoked, this is a good thing. but i dont think you should rob peter, to pay paul and make him look good.

the difficult part is, people seem to be thinking that the exercise came at no cost. it obviously did. And in simple terms, can be evidently seen via the price paid, versus comparable returns elsewhere, doesnt take much homework.  Yes it was a one off, yes it was a good promo. but surely could have been funded via other means, rather than against the punters playing the tote.

But dont use peters funds, to subsidize what you pay to paul, get my drift.... 

If you had a thousand on the tote, on that quinella, wouldnt you feel a little aggrieved. And then you think, oh shit, if i had placed that same bet with an overseas book maker, i could have gotten quite a bit better price? would you rather have a profit of $700 hundred, or elsewere easily more than double that.  Had TAB not offset the liability of that bet to the tote, which clearly they did, then a winning punter has lost some of their profit to BGP as a result.  If the TAB did not offset that liability to tote, which JJ is saying they may not of, then the tote offering was so uncompetitive, it is a mockery. but i dont believe this to be the case at all, cosidering pool size. plus the tab already operates on a uncompetitive take out rate anyway. 

but the tab is spending racing industry dollars in advertising that people bet with them.  But your asking your customers to bear the brunt, and pay for your promotion. 

......

done my point to death now.

When I was running another business, and i was marketing a promotion, i would have lost my position pretty quickly charging them additional premiums to subsidize and experiment for one customer, at the expense of my portfolio. 

p.s. i didnt have a bet on that race.  Just the TAB are so right in their advertisement, we need all the punting dollars available, its critical for our industry. I just think they could have found another way to go about this experiment

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Varro , I see your viewpoint but this is punting and its  fast paced action ......hundreds of different options every hour and with In-play betting maybe hundreds per minute.

Every punter I have known has dozens of hard luck stories and dozens of little outcomes which they don't like.

eg when a deadheat for third used to lessen the 1st and 2nd place prices, bigger takeouts for some betting options , jackpot divis moving to a different meeting on different days , some bookies paying out on relegations , some bookies refunding win bets on sports draws , the rounding down of divis .....where does the loose change go? All these have prompted written letters to those in charge !

Remember when winners of Pick 6 claimed the full advertised dividend eg $100k ,claiming it advertised Pick 6 and win.......not $100k divided by winning tickets.

And the current Bonus Bets ....copied from overseas.......everyone I speak to at races or TAB love these.....if your horse or jockey run a place and not win ie you lose money ,you get a Bonus bet.

Other punters pay for this.........surely its no Govt handout.

Plus its discriminatory........only available on-line !

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31 minutes ago, tasman man said:

Varro , I see your viewpoint but this is punting and its  fast paced action ......hundreds of different options every hour and with In-play betting maybe hundreds per minute.

Every punter I have known has dozens of hard luck stories and dozens of little outcomes which they don't like.

eg when a deadheat for third used to lessen the 1st and 2nd place prices, bigger takeouts for some betting options , jackpot divis moving to a different meeting on different days , some bookies paying out on relegations , some bookies refunding win bets on sports draws , the rounding down of divis .....where does the loose change go? All these have prompted written letters to those in charge !

Remember when winners of Pick 6 claimed the full advertised dividend eg $100k ,claiming it advertised Pick 6 and win.......not $100k divided by winning tickets.

And the current Bonus Bets ....copied from overseas.......everyone I speak to at races or TAB love these.....if your horse or jockey run a place and not win ie you lose money ,you get a Bonus bet.

Other punters pay for this.........surely its no Govt handout.

Plus its discriminatory........only available on-line !

sorry mate i disagree. The tab need to be competitive for the benefit of the industry, and for distributions to the codes.  That requires an increase in wagering, hence their ad. They have to stay competitive.  If not, punters will flock. 

bonus bets are covered via the book on fixed odds, off set by the fixed odds price. its not the same.

Times have changed, we have become more sophisticated with betting, and punters want better service, treatment and value. its a common theme amongst gripes with the tab.  

i like bonus bets too.  But i realise by doing this, im betting on a fixed odds platform that has a worse take out and ultimately price offering against the tote, majority of the time.  Its the same as the hot jocks bonus feature, its covered by the price offered via fixed odds.

apples and oranges

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15 minutes ago, Varro said:

sorry mate i disagree. The tab need to be competitive for the benefit of the industry, and for distributions to the codes.  That requires an increase in wagering, hence their ad. They have to stay competitive.  If not, punters will flock. 

bonus bets are covered via the book on fixed odds, off set by the fixed odds price. its not the same.

Times have changed, we have become more sophisticated with betting, and punters want better service, treatment and value. its a common theme amongst gripes with the tab.  

i like bonus bets too.  But i realise by doing this, im betting on a fixed odds platform that has a worse take out and ultimately price offering against the tote, majority of the time.  Its the same as the hot jocks bonus feature, its covered by the price offered via fixed odds.

apples and oranges

It might be a simplistic answer but no one makes you support local TAB. We agree to disagree  on this promo and its outcome.

Like all bookies the local runs 364 days a year. They provide a service just like the rest  yet you seem perturbed over 1 promo. Fair enough but like any wager. Someone wins. The Rest lose. .

In this instance a cursory look at will pays should have sent alarm bells ringing for smart punters  like.youself.

Did the TAB offload on tote. I don't know but do you know for certain they did..??

 

 

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57 minutes ago, JJ Flash said:

It might be a simplistic answer but no one makes you support local TAB. We agree to disagree  on this promo and its outcome.

Like all bookies the local runs 364 days a year. They provide a service just like the rest  yet you seem perturbed over 1 promo. Fair enough but like any wager. Someone wins. The Rest lose. .

In this instance a cursory look at will pays should have sent alarm bells ringing for smart punters  like.youself.

Did the TAB offload on tote. I don't know but do you know for certain they did..??

 

 

JJ, how else then would you explain the quinella pool being approx 45k more than any other race on the card, whilst at the same time, there was no change or reflection of additional betting revenue for win or place bets on the same race.  So perculiar, then that the last race, which coincidentally is carrying the big quinella for BGP, and there is a noticable differential in the quinella pool, again in the vicinity of 40 to 45k.

again the TAB will not compete against a 1 man pool, and given the differential in tote for the last, it is quite obvious to anyone with any common sense and basic knowledge that they offset the liability against the tote.  There are some clever ones out there, across 2 other different sites, with more inside knowledge of operations than me who have also see it this way aswell.

anyway i am done argung this subject, if you cant see how this is unfair, then thats ok, and thats your view.  But i see it a different way. 

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1 hour ago, JJ Flash said:

It might be a simplistic answer but no one makes you support local TAB. We agree to disagree  on this promo and its outcome.

Like all bookies the local runs 364 days a year. They provide a service just like the rest  yet you seem perturbed over 1 promo. Fair enough but like any wager. Someone wins. The Rest lose. .

In this instance a cursory look at will pays should have sent alarm bells ringing for smart punters  like.youself.

Did the TAB offload on tote. I don't know but do you know for certain they did..??

 

 

Didn't bet on race but IF ,I've no idea if they did but IF the TAB basically had a private exclusive bet with one punter with no option available to others then blew that bet off on the Tote  , many punters   wouldn't have rumbled it . I back 95 per cent NZ Tab so am loyal but that is IMHO a totally wanky thing to do . As I say didn't cost me but if they did what other stunts they pulling . I don't mind bonus bets , rebates etc because any punter if they bet big gets that but this is different . It's also different to OZ because it's a free market , NZ Tab a Soviet style semi  state run lazy operation  , not a lean mean real bookies . They have a monopoly so have a duty to play a bit fair .

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29 minutes ago, Red Rum said:

They have a monopoly so have a duty to play a bit fair .

Might i suggest their latest ad suggests otherwise re monopolies Please punt locally as its costing sport and Racing 80 mio a year.

 

31 minutes ago, Red Rum said:

IF the TAB basically had a private exclusive bet with one punter with no option available to others

It was well publicised as a one off promo to introduce F/O quinellas as Tasman Man put it and done well before  the races. Will pays are freely available  to all punters with TAB account.. i have no idea whether they laid it off and for that matter no one else has either from what i have seen/read. Speculation is as always rife 

Do punters object so vociferously when someone hits the first F/O price when market opens. Yes this promo was closed book but if the price was so out of whack surely a bright punter would have joined the BGP club for the day.

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18 minutes ago, JJ Flash said:

Might i suggest their latest ad suggests otherwise re monopolies Please punt locally as its costing sport and Racing 80 mio a year.

 

It was well publicised as a one off promo to introduce F/O quinellas as Tasman Man put it and done well before  the races. Will pays are freely available  to all punters with TAB account.. i have no idea whether they laid it off and for that matter no one else has either from what i have seen/read. Speculation is as always rife 

Do punters object so vociferously when someone hits the first F/O price when market opens. Yes this promo was closed book but if the price was so out of whack surely a bright punter would have joined the BGP club for the day.

then it is clear you can neither read or see. i think from reading your arguments, particularly across another site, you are making yourself look a bit plain on this topic.

if you cant unerstand despite various explanations, how it seems very obvious it was played against tote pool, and its repurcussion for this pool and its punters then thats on you.

will pays especially for a bet like tht before tote close would be a waste of time because the tote is adjusted on close, and why should the punter do that, would it not be reasonable to assume they would get a market rate price for return? give or take. 

you are showing yourself to be a novice, and makes a mockery of our tab. you honestly think a ladbrokes or a bet365 would shit on their customers like this? even for a big group wagering in this manner, like fuck.

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32 minutes ago, Varro said:

then it is clear you can neither read or see. i think from reading your arguments, particularly across another site, you are making yourself look a bit plain on this topic.

if you cant unerstand despite various explanations, how it seems very obvious it was played against tote pool, and its repurcussion for this pool and its punters then thats on you.

will pays especially for a bet like tht before tote close would be a waste of time because the tote is adjusted on close, and why should the punter do that, would it not be reasonable to assume they would get a market rate price for return? give or take. 

you are showing yourself to be a novice, and makes a mockery of our tab. you honestly think a ladbrokes or a bet365 would shit on their customers like this? even for a big group wagering in this manner, like fuck.

Exactly they screwed the tote punters.

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1 hour ago, JJ Flash said:

Might i suggest their latest ad suggests otherwise re monopolies Please punt locally as its costing sport and Racing 80 mio a year.

 

It was well publicised as a one off promo to introduce F/O quinellas as Tasman Man put it and done well before  the races. Will pays are freely available  to all punters with TAB account.. i have no idea whether they laid it off and for that matter no one else has either from what i have seen/read. Speculation is as always rife 

Do punters object so vociferously when someone hits the first F/O price when market opens. Yes this promo was closed book but if the price was so out of whack surely a bright punter would have joined the BGP club for the day.

They have a legislated monopoly here , if people go offshore that's there option but it's a monopoly . Like say a Volvo garage here selling cars as the only outlet for new Volvos by law , then I import one  but more hassle but better deal. The guts is they want me to punt here yet make a deal with one entity and scam it off against the tote pool that the rest country have only that option to bet into if they want a quinela in a million buck race .Therefore stuffing up the quinela bet in a million bucks race with eyes punting world on it . The tail is wagging the dog here . No disrespect to BGP their job to negotiate a good deal for their people but it's a bad look , IF this is the case , I'd love to know one way or another for .

To be clear laying off bets no problems , that's the game the guts here is I couldn't have a buck on that option if I wanted  , I was forced to go tote on that quinela if I wanted to bet and to stay loyal to NZ TAB and support NZ racing , then they topped them up and 25 buck voucher . OK alienate the rest of you clientele and stick with BGP , see how it goes .

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My gut feeling is they need to clear this up one way or another , IMHO it's a borderline integrity issue , a private wager loaded onto a public pool without any indication officially must be looked into by regulators to clear up its legality and that all was in order if this transaction did indeed occur .

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