RaceCafe..#1...Tipsters Thread.... Share Your Fancies For Fun...Lets See Who The Best Tipsters Here Are.
stodge

Do You Miss On Course Bookies?

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I read the last time there were on course bookmakers in NZ was on January 30th 1911 following the amendment to the 1910 Gaming Act which outlawed them and replaced them with the mechanical totalisator.

In the UK, we've had a very different history. The Gaming Act of 1845 basically prohibited bookmaking except at racecourses so on-course bookmakers thrived and in 1961 went into the High Street with full legalisation so we have both on-course and off-course bookmakers as well as the Tote.

The bookmakers pay a share of turnover which forms the Levy, a key element of racing funding. Bookmakers sponsor races and own some greyhound tracks.

My question is: would you welcome the return of on-course bookmakers in NZ? Would such bookmakers, in competition with the TAB, provide better value for punters?  

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2 hours ago, Pam Robson said:

I should think they would be very welcome among punters anyway...and provide much-needed colour and atmosphere to some very bland days.      And, surely, competition has to be good for all?

 

 

 

A wee while ago racing.com had a series of studio panel discussions on this and some interviews with bookies from the "ring" said that they bet down to 100% because of the INTENSE COMPETITION, but were still struggling because punters prefer to do it on their devices rather than get up and get a better deal .And this is talking about people on course,go figure.

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2 hours ago, NextPlease said:

The TAB runs a monopoly, so it's no chance of happening.

Not so. You and anyone else can open offshore bookie accounts so they do not actually have  a monopoly in the true sense of the word. I would grant you that nobody else  can physically operate a gambling operation  from a NZ address

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8 hours ago, stodge said:

I read the last time there were on course bookmakers in NZ was on January 30th 1911 following the amendment to the 1910 Gaming Act which outlawed them and replaced them with the mechanical totalisator.

In the UK, we've had a very different history. The Gaming Act of 1845 basically prohibited bookmaking except at racecourses so on-course bookmakers thrived and in 1961 went into the High Street with full legalisation so we have both on-course and off-course bookmakers as well as the Tote.

The bookmakers pay a share of turnover which forms the Levy, a key element of racing funding. Bookmakers sponsor races and own some greyhound tracks.

My question is: would you welcome the return of on-course bookmakers in NZ? Would such bookmakers, in competition with the TAB, provide better value for punters?  

For many years it was levy free on course so that got a few there  who bet big , at bookies I normally used to pay the tax on the stake for multiples and Yankees etc as could take a chunk out of decent win from small stake .

 

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From my understanding, it was always the case that bookmakers return much less to the industry than the tote does, which is why British racing has always struggled for stakes. On that basis you could argue that NZ racing has been better off over the years not having bookmakers.

Unfortunately, we now have a dysfunctional and largely incompetent TAB which is incapable of successfully performing its role for the industry, so it may be worth considering alternatives. 

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'The TAB runs a monopoly'

Unfortunately they would be incapable of selling beer to an alcoholic. The TAB was set-up for the right reasons unfortunately over the years those reasons were lost due to management incompetence.

Monopolies lose any incentive to innovate or provide new and improved products plus customer service deteriorates to near zero which all adds up to the NZ TAB.

 

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Oncourse Bookmakers are almost gone completely in Oz. There’s no need for them now that there are so many Orgs like Ladbrokes, Bet365, BetEasy, Sportingbet etc etc etc. easy access on ones mobile, generous incentives - especially for the small punters. They can’t make a decent dollar out of it on track. As for Rob Waterhouse fielding at Te Rapa. Wasn’t it great that he was operating as a Bookie for the NZ TAB and generously let everyone on Kings Chapel at (or was it Darci B?) OVERS”! :) 

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4 hours ago, LightsOut said:

Unfortunately they would be incapable of selling beer to an alcoholic. The TAB was set-up for the right reasons unfortunately over the years those reasons were lost due to management incompetence.

Monopolies lose any incentive to innovate or provide new and improved products plus customer service deteriorates to near zero which all adds up to the NZ TAB.

 

Your like a broken record. You must lead a sad miserable life

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16 hours ago, Red Rum said:

For many years it was levy free on course so that got a few there  who bet big , at bookies I normally used to pay the tax on the stake for multiples and Yankees etc as could take a chunk out of decent win from small stake .

 

Yes, the 10% off-course betting tax was abolished in the late 1980s. Before that, you could choose to either pay the tax up front or out of your winnings.

As you say, on-course there was no tax and the big players could bet long odds on without it being financially punitive as it was of course. 

As an example, if you wanted to put £1000 on a 1/5 shot - on course you'd put on £1000 and if it came in you walked away with £1,200 so a £200 profit. If you backed off course and paid the tax you would put on £1000 + £100 tax and got a return of £1200 so a profit of £100. If you didn't pay the tax you'd put on £1000 but lose £120 of your winnings leaving you with a profit of £80.

The end of betting tax allowed for much shorter price horses to be backed (or later on laid).  

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16 hours ago, We're Doomed said:

From my understanding, it was always the case that bookmakers return much less to the industry than the tote does, which is why British racing has always struggled for stakes. On that basis you could argue that NZ racing has been better off over the years not having bookmakers.

Unfortunately, we now have a dysfunctional and largely incompetent TAB which is incapable of successfully performing its role for the industry, so it may be worth considering alternatives. 

That's a valid point - part of that has been the move away from betting shops being primarily about horse and dog racing and encompassing more sport betting opportunities. When I marked the board in betting shops in the early 80s, the only betting options were horse racing and dog racing. 

The Levy to which the bookies contribute is the share of the money taken on horse racing and doesn't (I believe) include bets struck offshore so when the likes of Victor Chandler moved to Gibraltar, they took any tax liability with them. The UK Tote operates with a deduction of 16.5%.

In France, the PMU deduction ranges from 13.9% for a "Simple" bet to 22.5% for the daily "Tierce" bet. 

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Your like a broken record. You must lead a sad miserable life

I did until I opened a betting account overseas.

I will give you one thing your 100% the NZ TAB's #1 cheerleader. I give them a tune-up because they continue to cost the Industry lost revenue because of their gross incompetence  in understanding how to run a wagering operation and how to service customers. At least registered on & off course bookies in NZ would be another avenue for a punter to try and get a better service. Not saying they might receive that but let's be honest any overseas outfit doesn't have to worry about the competition here.  Bigger punters have left the NZ TAB in droves where as smaller punters can't be bothered with the hassle of not being able to bet and collect locally but if that changed to a situation where they could well it's not hard to work out where most would want to bet. Go to your local TAB if you can find one then ask 10 customers if you can find them and ask them "do you like betting with the TAB and do you rate their customer service", if you get 3 to 4 rating them positively then I would be very surprised. I would have asked a dozen punters and everyone one of them rate the NZ TAB as nil with no idea.

Turnover might be up but anyone with half a brain can work out why. The same thing happened with an Aussie TAB their turnover more than doubled in a year but they went near broke achieving it. Are race stakes up and has the $45 million bank overdraft come down? Harness on-course turnover was down about 27% to middle December yet NZ TAB  tote figures are up 25% in the same area. You don't crow that racing is going through a boom period and get a %  swing like that occurring. It's called spin doctoring with figures eg rebates, win assurance and bonus bets all great for the punter but not much good for the Industry wanting a return. 

Story below on TAB customer service and management at it's best again. Sadly clueless on their customer obligations when doing financial  transactions. Only in the business for 60 plus years with an audit and management team who can't get it right.  The only broken record is the crap service they continue to give and then expect customers to come back or continue betting with them. Ha ha plead with customers to come back and bet with us yet today you continue to treat them like this. 

Quote

You can't play a 'broken' record but unfortunately NZ  still bet with a home grown monopoly' broken' wagering agency. 

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2 hours ago, LightsOut said:

I did until I opened a betting account overseas.

I will give you one thing your 100% the NZ TAB's #1 cheerleader. I give them a tune-up because they continue to cost the Industry lost revenue because of their gross incompetence  in understanding how to run a wagering operation and how to service customers. At least registered on & off course bookies in NZ would be another avenue for a punter to try and get a better service. Not saying they might receive that but let's be honest any overseas outfit doesn't have to worry about the competition here.  Bigger punters have left the NZ TAB in droves where as smaller punters can't be bothered with the hassle of not being able to bet and collect locally but if that changed to a situation where they could well it's not hard to work out where most would want to bet. Go to your local TAB if you can find one then ask 10 customers if you can find them and ask them "do you like betting with the TAB and do you rate their customer service", if you get 3 to 4 rating them positively then I would be very surprised. I would have asked a dozen punters and everyone one of them rate the NZ TAB as nil with no idea.

Turnover might be up but anyone with half a brain can work out why. The same thing happened with an Aussie TAB their turnover more than doubled in a year but they went near broke achieving it. Are race stakes up and has the $45 million bank overdraft come down? Harness on-course turnover was down about 27% to middle December yet NZ TAB  tote figures are up 25% in the same area. You don't crow that racing is going through a boom period and get a %  swing like that occurring. It's called spin doctoring with figures eg rebates, win assurance and bonus bets all great for the punter but not much good for the Industry wanting a return. 

Story below on TAB customer service and management at it's best again. Sadly clueless on their customer obligations when doing financial  transactions. Only in the business for 60 plus years with an audit and management team who can't get it right.  The only broken record is the crap service they continue to give and then expect customers to come back or continue betting with them. Ha ha plead with customers to come back and bet with us yet today you continue to treat them like this. 

You can't play a 'broken' record but unfortunately NZ  still bet with a home grown monopoly' broken' wagering agency. 

Not only are you a miserable prick but you seem to struggle with facts .  Tell us all about these big punters that have left in droves- can you put a number on it and were they a net gain to NZTAB??- and no , guesses don't count🤔

You'll be disturbed to know that things are quite rosy from what i have heard and the Pubtab i use is actually doing a great trade with the publican very happy about the increased patronage and returns to him.

Turnover results may well be up but as anyone with any sort of wagering IQ would know its much more about GBM's these days . I cant answer about future stakes levels or loans as 6 monthly reports are not out yet. Accordingly , neither can you  Further, Racing NZ Board now decides payout distributions to codes so its logical to suggest that failing Harness turnover will result in less stakes to that code which has been punished for poor integrity and governance  at most levels.  

The current incentives, eg bonus bets  are IMHO a very clever use of resources and match or better offshore offerings and i have accounts in multiple jurisdictions.. 

You say you are  happy to be using an offshore agency so why constantly moan about the local one on here all the time  Your not achieving anything with your current approach that i can see. I'm going to judge the new board/management on results post restructuring - seems the logical thing to do 

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You'll be delighted to know that things are quite rosy from what i have heard and the Pubtab i use is actually doing a great trade with the publican very happy about the increased patronage and returns to him.

That's good to hear someone knows how to promote one side of their business successfully, shame that publican isn't in charge of marketing at the NZ TAB. The local TAB Agent threw the towel in as he said after paying all expenses he was earning $4.50 an hour, it used to be in the top 3 Agency's turnovers once upon a good time. Yes the NZ TAB are going real well when a situation like that turns around.

I also will judge the new board and management on results once they are appointed.

When an Organisation has a National monopoly no customer should be leaving because of mismanagement or customer service and if you truly believe that punters haven't you will no doubt be elected into the NZ TAB Cheerleaders Hall Of Fame.  

Thankfully this site has a worthwhile addition eg ignore user button as quiet frankly you bore the crap out of me with your uneducated cheerleading views. 

Happy Cheerleading.they need some poor sap doing it.

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33 minutes ago, LightsOut said:

I also will judge the new board and management on results once they are appointed.

They latest board, effectively RITA, were  appointed some 18 months ago. After all it is their results everyone is interested in as they were in charge of restructuring the business disaster they inherited from John, Glenda and Co. Any new board is some time away unless the currents dont want to reapply or who are unwanted by Minister

36 minutes ago, LightsOut said:

When an Organisation has a National monopoly  no customer should be leaving because of mismanagement or customer service

Are you stupid enough to offer this sort of nonsense when you openly said earlier you use an offshore betting agency . Hence , NZTAB do not have a monopoly as you and anyone can go somewhere else at any time just as Ozzies can open accounts and use NZTAB. 

Please do use the ignore function , I'm pretty sure your on a lot of ignore lists already given your continual moaning and unverifiable rubbish you refer to as facts. Its that boring it would make an onion cry😴

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18 minutes ago, JJ Flash said:

There's more than.one way to access NZTAB

If you’re in Aust, you can be on track or in your car, anywhere, and you can log in to all the betting orgs and all TAB’s - based in Australia. I can’t log in to my NZ TAB account (haven’t used it for 14 years so no matter) and I can’t enter the NZ TAB website. One is not allowed to access it. One is blocked out. 
 

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16 minutes ago, Trump said:

If you’re in Aust, you can be on track or in your car, anywhere, and you can log in to all the betting orgs and all TAB’s - based in Australia. I can’t log in to my NZ TAB account (haven’t used it for 14 years so no matter) and I can’t enter the NZ TAB website. One is not allowed to access it. One is blocked out. 
 

I think you can use a VPN ( too technical for me)  but why would you want to go to the bother when the alternatives are superior?

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30 minutes ago, Pam Robson said:

I think you can use a VPN ( too technical for me)  but why would you want to go to the bother when the alternatives are superior?

Correct or you can call- who hasn't got a mobile package with free minutes to Oz and vice versa. 

NZTAB not as bad as many Ozzie ones , trust me as i have tried most of them. None of them want large winners on their books. and NZ play into TABCORP Ozzie pools and vice versa so your playing into best volumes, especially pari mutual bet types eg Quaddies

Still, many have historical grievances and don't want to use local operators on both sides of Tasman. All about choice these days and there is plenty of it if you look around

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