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We're Doomed

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Just glancing through some upcoming programmes and I notice the $1m sweepstake races at Ellerslie are still worth $1m. I presume NZTR is planning to toss in their $500,000 as usual. So things must be tracking ok for the industry. All of those eliminated and balloted horses at Timaru last week will be relieved that their sacrifice wasn't in vain and it was all for the greater good of the industry.

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2 hours ago, mikenz said:

Explain plz,you got me on this one.

Basically the industry is subsidising a couple of sweepstakes races to the tune of a half a million dollars.

WD makes a good point while NZTR do their best to give the middle finger to the owners battling to get a start at industry day meetings etc. 

I don't believe the fields on that night would be much different if they were run for half the prizemoney, perhaps the Australians wouldn't come but that may not be an option anymore at any rate.

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18 minutes ago, Aaron Bidlake said:

At the time of the sale you had the option of 'buying in' for a chance for the next two years to run in a million dollar race so I doubt  they would be able to change that for this seasons 2yo and 3yo race and then also next seasons 3yo race. False advertising otherwise I would say??

Yes. But that's a contract between the buyer and NZB isn't it. Shouldn't be funded/subsidised by NZTR with industry funds.

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2 minutes ago, Leggy said:

Yes. But that's a contract between the buyer and NZB isn't it. Shouldn't be funded/subsidised by NZTR with industry funds.

Yes, it seems strange that NZTR would have some contractual obligation to toss in $500,000 to support a couple of sales races. Usually those sort of things would be self funding.

I have absolutely no idea what the situation is, but does the Australian racing industry subsidise the $1m races on the Gold Coast every January? Someone might know and be able to enlighten us. I am pretty sure that the NZ industry never used to subsidise the old Bayer Classic, which was open to all 3yos as long as they nominated in time.

As Huey says above, I can't imagine that turnovers would be any different if those races were worth $750,000 each. So basically the $500,000 tossed in by the industry is totally dead money: it contributes nothing and generates nothing. 

If that $500,0000 was allocated to six additional industry meetings those meetings would provide starts for 700 horses and be largely self funding. The $500,000 would mostly be returned from commission on betting. I think it is the sort of question that people should be asking at these roadshow meetings later this week. Where exactly does NZTR see their priorities? Do they think their money is well spent spent subsidising these sweepstake races rather than supporting grassroots racing?

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The argument is that the industry is better off having these races.  It creates the big night (and it is a big night).  The $750K night does not have the same ring as a million dollar race.  I think it is great that NZ bloodstock throw in $1.5M and they should be allowed have whatever eligability rules the want.

The other side is that the poor guy that breeds his own horse, pays for it right through to race day is not entitled to run in the race that NZTR contributes $500K too because he did not let NZ bloodstock clip the ticket. 

My personal solution would be the following:

Any horse can run in the race however those that have not been through the sales ring are only eligable for the $250K (NZTR portion) where does that have been through the ring are entithled to the $1M.  This would also mean that the race could eventually gain group status.

 

 

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20 minutes ago, shaneMcAlister said:

The argument is that the industry is better off having these races.  It creates the big night (and it is a big night).  The $750K night does not have the same ring as a million dollar race.  I think it is great that NZ bloodstock throw in $1.5M and they should be allowed have whatever eligability rules the want.

The other side is that the poor guy that breeds his own horse, pays for it right through to race day is not entitled to run in the race that NZTR contributes $500K too because he did not let NZ bloodstock clip the ticket. 

My personal solution would be the following:

Any horse can run in the race however those that have not been through the sales ring are only eligable for the $250K (NZTR portion) where does that have been through the ring are entithled to the $1M.  This would also mean that the race could eventually gain group status.

 

 

Surely NZ Bloodstock doesn't toss in $1.5m, surely that is contributed by the purchasers of yearlings? And surely a $750,000 night would still be the only game in town? They are hardly going to be topped off by a $1m night at Avondale. And surely the public at large realise times are tough, and the racing industry is struggling as much as any other.

And I'm sure most people would be happy to allow NZ Bloodstock to "have whatever eligibility rules they want", but not many would then expect the industry at large to toss in $500,000 to indulge them.

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So lets say 100 entries , I've no idea of the numbers but there is $250k in prizemoney each race I guess, paid for by the yearling purchaser to start with.

An entry fee of NZ$2,500 plus GST must be received by NZB in full by:

(a) Book 1, 2 and 3 - 5pm on Thursday 30 April 2020

(b) South Island Sale - 5pm on Monday 31 August 2020

(c) NZB National Weanling Sale - 5pm on Monday 31 August 2020

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The Magic Millions Carnival is unlike any NZ Carnival. It’s a week like MC week with Polo, Fashion shows, Golf events, Ball, cocktail functions, horse racing and MM Sales, etc. its huge for Tourism on the Gold Coast. The Qld Govt supports it with some substantial help as part of Qld Events Corporation. Most States have similar Organisations that operate to attract and support Major Tourism Events. 

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3 hours ago, Aaron Bidlake said:

At the time of the sale you had the option of 'buying in' for a chance for the next two years to run in a million dollar race so I doubt  they would be able to change that for this seasons 2yo and 3yo race and then also next seasons 3yo race. False advertising otherwise I would say??

You are 100% correct. When I made inquiries regarding NZTR continuing the contribution (given the current Covid-19 situation)  I was told by Bernard Saundry that they were contracted to it for another two years. 

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10 minutes ago, Insider said:

You are 100% correct. When I made inquiries regarding NZTR continuing the contribution (given the current Covid-19 situation)  I was told by Bernard Saundry that they were contracted to it for another two years. 

I wish the rest of the industry had them contracted in for another 2 years....and maybe we wouldn't be racing for $10K on Saturdays again.

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10 hours ago, We're Doomed said:

Just glancing through some upcoming programmes and I notice the $1m sweepstake races at Ellerslie are still worth $1m. I presume NZTR is planning to toss in their $500,000 as usual. So things must be tracking ok for the industry. All of those eliminated and balloted horses at Timaru last week will be relieved that their sacrifice wasn't in vain and it was all for the greater good of the industry.

I was OK with it..........gives some incentive for the better local horses to stick around and race in NZ ,rather than dumbing down the whole industry.

Surely Owners and breeders are somewhat important to the future of the Industry in NZ.

I think its totally reasonable that NZTR fund Group Ones and other 'iconic' races such as the Karaka races receive $200 - $250 k per race , they seem to attract International as well as Kiwi Interest.

I note the NZ Derby @ $360k  and 2000 Guineas @ $325k have been the highest funded races from NZTR up to the current season.

The ARC puts $1 mill toward stakes , and it could be argued that they are in a position to contribute more. Being rated an 'International' venue should receive some rewards and they do via stakes.

The Melbourne Cup and other high stake races have recently had some sweepstake twist to them .

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7 hours ago, Insider said:

You are 100% correct. When I made inquiries regarding NZTR continuing the contribution (given the current Covid-19 situation)  I was told by Bernard Saundry that they were contracted to it for another two years. 

Therein lies the problem. No problem with the contract between NZB and the buyer but why on earth would NZTR contract with NZB to commit that level of industry funds to an NZB promotion involving restricted race events?

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27 minutes ago, Leggy said:

Therein lies the problem. No problem with the contract between NZB and the buyer but why on earth would NZTR contract with NZB to commit that level of industry funds to an NZB promotion involving restricted race events?

I believe it was done in the Purcell era.

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1 hour ago, Leggy said:

Therein lies the problem. No problem with the contract between NZB and the buyer but why on earth would NZTR contract with NZB to commit that level of industry funds to an NZB promotion involving restricted race events?

Leggy - do you know how a 'glove puppet' works? 

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11 hours ago, tasman man 11 said:

I was OK with it..........gives some incentive for the better local horses to stick around and race in NZ ,rather than dumbing down the whole industry.

Surely Owners and breeders are somewhat important to the future of the Industry in NZ.

I think its totally reasonable that NZTR fund Group Ones and other 'iconic' races such as the Karaka races receive $200 - $250 k per race , they seem to attract International as well as Kiwi Interest.

I note the NZ Derby @ $360k  and 2000 Guineas @ $325k have been the highest funded races from NZTR up to the current season.

The ARC puts $1 mill toward stakes , and it could be argued that they are in a position to contribute more. Being rated an 'International' venue should receive some rewards and they do via stakes.

The Melbourne Cup and other high stake races have recently had some sweepstake twist to them .

None of those races you mention are restricted entry, you make the field you make the field.

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3 hours ago, Huey said:

None of those races you mention are restricted entry, you make the field you make the field.

Correct.......but there no restriction as to who can bet on them ,or who can attend to watch etc.

Is not one of the goals of NZTR to try to encourage investment in Ownership etc ?

The Karaka race/day creates a lot of interest here and abroad.

Both the race and the day itself rank in the top 7 for betting turnover.

Definitely one of the best days racing on current calendar IMO.

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2 hours ago, tasman man 11 said:

Correct.......but there no restriction as to who can bet on them ,or who can attend to watch etc.

Is not one of the goals of NZTR to try to encourage investment in Ownership etc ?

The Karaka race/day creates a lot of interest here and abroad.

Both the race and the day itself rank in the top 7 for betting turnover.

Definitely one of the best days racing on current calendar IMO.

There were at least 45 horses balloted and eliminated at Timaru last week. That's a lot of pissed off owners. All they wanted to do was race for $10,000. None of them had aspirations to race for $1m; not with last week's horses anyhow. We do need to get the balance right.

I even wonder whether the 2,000 Guineas needed to retain its $500,000 stake this year. I think it would have attracted the same field for $400,000. It is the Group 1 status the connections are most interested in. It is only a few months ago that the industry couldn't afford to hold either of the Guineas races in the SI, now everything is all go again and things seem to be booming and stakes are back to last years levels. I just hope they can stay there.

I can't see any attempt at all to rationalise stakes. With open entry races a lot of horses are racing for $30,000 that would previously have raced for $22,500. I do wonder whether Wingatui really needed three $30,000 races last weekend and whether the meeting was self funding. If things are going as well as they appear to be hopefully we will stop seeing horses regularly being eliminated in the SI.

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4 hours ago, tasman man 11 said:

Correct.......but there no restriction as to who can bet on them ,or who can attend to watch etc.

Is not one of the goals of NZTR to try to encourage investment in Ownership etc ?

The Karaka race/day creates a lot of interest here and abroad.

Both the race and the day itself rank in the top 7 for betting turnover.

Definitely one of the best days racing on current calendar IMO.

Which races are punters restricted from punting on?

So you're telling me a twilight race meeting in the height of summer held at Ellerslie with a few million in stakes generates good turnover? Who'd have thought that ...!

Does it generate any revenue for the industry apart from the usual cliche that is great for the sport the industry, booze up etc etc etc?

Yes NZTR are supposed to encourage ownership so how about those poor owners at Timaru that WD mentioned that can't get a start?

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1 hour ago, We're Doomed said:

There were at least 45 horses balloted and eliminated at Timaru last week. That's a lot of pissed off owners. All they wanted to do was race for $10,000. None of them had aspirations to race for $1m; not with last week's horses anyhow. We do need to get the balance right.

I even wonder whether the 2,000 Guineas needed to retain its $500,000 stake this year. I think it would have attracted the same field for $400,000. It is the Group 1 status the connections are most interested in. It is only a few months ago that the industry couldn't afford to hold either of the Guineas races in the SI, now everything is all go again and things seem to be booming and stakes are back to last years levels. I just hope they can stay there.

I can't see any attempt at all to rationalise stakes. With open entry races a lot of horses are racing for $30,000 that would previously have raced for $22,500. I do wonder whether Wingatui really needed three $30,000 races last weekend and whether the meeting was self funding. If things are going as well as they appear to be hopefully we will stop seeing horses regularly being eliminated in the SI.

The industry would have been better shaving some of the stakes off races to fund trackside Radio in some form until/if it got up and going again , an absolutely integral part of the industry currently dead in the water!

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4 hours ago, Huey said:

Which races are punters restricted from punting on?

So you're telling me a twilight race meeting in the height of summer held at Ellerslie with a few million in stakes generates good turnover? Who'd have thought that ...!

Does it generate any revenue for the industry apart from the usual cliche that is great for the sport the industry, booze up etc etc etc?

Yes NZTR are supposed to encourage ownership so how about those poor owners at Timaru that WD mentioned that can't get a start?

Huey , you seem a very negative person ,and how you enjoy dissecting my posts looking for a wrong word ,an error.

This is a forum ...I write my own opinion based on my own experiences and participation.

The restricted comment was into the referral to  the Karaka races as restricted , cos they are ....only horses who pay a fee at the Sales can enter...ie the are restricted.I replied .

AS to generating revenue....you think about it.....The races are linked to the sales which attracts International visitors and investors ,often an Aussie horse and/or jockey or two.Better than normal publicity , good attendance and punting , and attracts many 'new' and 'younger' folk on the day and is one of BGP 's big day. It is a great day ,again IMO.

Does it generate revenue.......you work that out.

I'm sure your tag -team will join in.....the ones who want Timaru developed as a state of art racing centre.....and no need to touch the track !History shows it can get wet / heavy there like most of NZ !

I know a little bit about the South Island and its racing........I have probably lived in the South Island for longer than you and your tag-team mates who will need to come to your assistance.

Don't bother reading my posts......ignore them ,thanks !

As for the owners who missed a start at Timaru ,I feel for them cause happened to me many ,many times especially with Maidens and R65. You need to get some form and move up the rankings to avoid the ballot. Its happened for years and I know the feeling.

I also know that NZ owners are very resilient , take abysmal returns ,increasing costs etc There are a lot of slow horses about too.

I also know that we are in unique times......when covid resulted in racing closing and most horses turned out , many horses were ultimately rushed back into winter work cos of the uncertainty of insolvent TAB etc and there has been a glut of horses as a result.

Even Ellerslie ,which has  some Jumping races this weekend seems to have twice the normal noms. Extra races will need to be added I guess.Again owners will be disappointed .

In closing Huey , dont cry ...try to create.

Look at what you can do to help racing and your part in it......constant negativity won't cut it ,this is a social media forum where any thing goes ......keyboard warriors in padded cells !

If you and your followers have the answers ,join a club and get on the inside and work your magic !

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14 hours ago, tasman man 11 said:

Huey , you seem a very negative person ,and how you enjoy dissecting my posts looking for a wrong word ,an error.

This is a forum ...I write my own opinion based on my own experiences and participation.

The restricted comment was into the referral to  the Karaka races as restricted , cos they are ....only horses who pay a fee at the Sales can enter...ie the are restricted.I replied .

AS to generating revenue....you think about it.....The races are linked to the sales which attracts International visitors and investors ,often an Aussie horse and/or jockey or two.Better than normal publicity , good attendance and punting , and attracts many 'new' and 'younger' folk on the day and is one of BGP 's big day. It is a great day ,again IMO.

Does it generate revenue.......you work that out.

I'm sure your tag -team will join in.....the ones who want Timaru developed as a state of art racing centre.....and no need to touch the track !History shows it can get wet / heavy there like most of NZ !

I know a little bit about the South Island and its racing........I have probably lived in the South Island for longer than you and your tag-team mates who will need to come to your assistance.

Don't bother reading my posts......ignore them ,thanks !

As for the owners who missed a start at Timaru ,I feel for them cause happened to me many ,many times especially with Maidens and R65. You need to get some form and move up the rankings to avoid the ballot. Its happened for years and I know the feeling.

I also know that NZ owners are very resilient , take abysmal returns ,increasing costs etc There are a lot of slow horses about too.

I also know that we are in unique times......when covid resulted in racing closing and most horses turned out , many horses were ultimately rushed back into winter work cos of the uncertainty of insolvent TAB etc and there has been a glut of horses as a result.

Even Ellerslie ,which has  some Jumping races this weekend seems to have twice the normal noms. Extra races will need to be added I guess.Again owners will be disappointed .

In closing Huey , dont cry ...try to create.

Look at what you can do to help racing and your part in it......constant negativity won't cut it ,this is a social media forum where any thing goes ......keyboard warriors in padded cells !

If you and your followers have the answers ,join a club and get on the inside and work your magic !

Unfortunately Tasman man what you deem to be negative thoughts are actually constructive thoughts by posters that really really care about this industry and the direction in which is heading.

Many have sat back and listened to the inane thoughts/strategies of industry leadership and folks like yourself for years that have gotten the industry to where it is today i.e. to the brink, so while you waffle on about racings fluffy clouds and fantasy land (btw youre welcome to those thoughts , I'm always interested in differing opinions ) leave the real thoughts to those that have been there are done that, those at the coal face that see whats going on everyday.

Please don't try to muzzle people by neutering their right to reply and just makes you look silly. 

As for the Karaka Million , no one is questioning its popularity or its effectiveness as part of the racing calendar but rightly so questions abound as to its subsidisation by the industry, I stand by my assertion that I don't think the race day would be that different if the stakes were halved, the hype , promo , marketing,venue and place in the calendar would be the same, the BGP boys would still turn up as would the celebrities you so admire. 

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