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We're Doomed

Timaru v All Weather.

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Geting back to the original post to be fair the Timaru Club havent helped themselves over the years.I believe certain trainers would have moved to the course with a team of 20 odd horses about 4 years ago but certain individuals put the kybosch on this so probably fair to say Club is not the most progressive.

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6 minutes ago, Four Hooves said:

Geting back to the original post to be fair the Timaru Club havent helped themselves over the years.I believe certain trainers would have moved to the course with a team of 20 odd horses about 4 years ago but certain individuals put the kybosch on this so probably fair to say Club is not the most progressive.

Well nothing to stop them now with the new legislation.

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44 minutes ago, Four Hooves said:

Geting back to the original post to be fair the Timaru Club havent helped themselves over the years.I believe certain trainers would have moved to the course with a team of 20 odd horses about 4 years ago but certain individuals put the kybosch on this so probably fair to say Club is not the most progressive.

I don't know any of the people involved with the club so I don't know whether they are at fault themselves. It must be a pretty soul destroying job being involved in race club management around the country these days. There isn't much scope for innovation and there certainly isn't any glory involved. I imagine it is only done for the love of the game.

It is pretty obvious thought that Timaru isn't liked by NZTR. They are the only club in the country with 7 or more meetings per annum not to have a single feature meeting. Even on their Cup day all of the supporting races are only worth $10,000.  I was surprised they weren't moved onto New Years day when Waikouaiti was given the flick. A feature race on that date in the SI would have fitted in perfectly.

I must say though, that after watching several races at Timaru today I cannot see how the industry would somehow be better off racing on a multi million dollar, tighter, artificial track at Riccarton for the same stakes. Why spend millions fixing something that isn't broken?

I noticed an article on Race Cafe describing how Te Akau had sent a sizable team down to Timaru for the better going. I can't imagine in a year or two they will be sending a sizable team down to race on the all weather. 

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14 hours ago, Red Rum said:

I don't mind them , been punting on them years but big difference between OZ , NZD and UK and Ireland,  in UK and Ireland a decent  pool of horses rattle round on them weekly ,  a lot stick to it so form gets to played out . In UK and Ireland they don't have pool of bog track winter flat racers because they finish turf Nov and start again March so the winter awt runners are bar the backend maidens getting an outing mainly awt horses, only query is if they swap Southwell to other tracks as Fibresand deeper , in fact most these bog trackers would probably be better on fibresand I reckon .

Yes but AW racing in the UK wasn't set up for the benefit of the flat racing community - it was set up to keep money coming into racing via betting turnover. 

There was one Christmas in the 80s when all the racing on Boxing Day and the following day was lost because of frost and snow. The bookies decided they couldn't tolerate the lost income so were big drivers in getting the initial AW tracks set up at Lingfield and Southwell.

We now have six AW tracks which is three too many and they are all grossly under-used. AW tracks are easy to maintain and could race 100-120 days a year but over here that doesn't happen. Some might argue we could scale back the grass tracks and have more AW meetings but that's NOT what I think.

We could mothball three of the AW tracks and use the other three much more in winter.

There's a place up here for AW because we can get bad winters but, to be fair, AW meetings can be lost to fog and high winds so the powers-that-be don't like the term All-Weather and prefer Winter Flat Racing. They also have a use in spring and autumn if grass courses are heavy or waterlogged and there's a lot to be said for running your 2-y-o and inexperienced 3-y-o on the Polytrack or Tapeta rather than on heavy turf.

As for NZ, I can see a place for one AW track somewhere providing bread-and-butter racing for TAB and overseas consumption though that might need some imaginative race timings. For example, if you started an AW meeting under lights at 9pm in the winter would be 10am in the summer up here and it might make for morning betting shop coverage as an alternative to dogs and cartoon races. Start your AW meeting at 8am on a warm summer morning and it's 7pm the night before on a winter's evening in the UK and again it might work and if the British bookies pay for it, who cares? 

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12 hours ago, Four Hooves said:

Geting back to the original post to be fair the Timaru Club havent helped themselves over the years.I believe certain trainers would have moved to the course with a team of 20 odd horses about 4 years ago but certain individuals put the kybosch on this so probably fair to say Club is not the most progressive.

I have just had a conversation with a committee member about this - there wasn’t anywhere to put a trainer with 20 horses.

The course is set up for overnight stays and Raceday horse accomodation. There are also small paddocks and stable blocks on the west side of the property that owner trainers, those with 2-4 horses rent.

Back in the hey day all the larger trainers owned their own property, Washdyke and Kennel Road was a racehorse trainer village with several well appointed yards, the trainers would hack to the track. 

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45 minutes ago, stodge said:

Yes but AW racing in the UK wasn't set up for the benefit of the flat racing community - it was set up to keep money coming into racing via betting turnover. 

There was one Christmas in the 80s when all the racing on Boxing Day and the following day was lost because of frost and snow. The bookies decided they couldn't tolerate the lost income so were big drivers in getting the initial AW tracks set up at Lingfield and Southwell.

We now have six AW tracks which is three too many and they are all grossly under-used. AW tracks are easy to maintain and could race 100-120 days a year but over here that doesn't happen. Some might argue we could scale back the grass tracks and have more AW meetings but that's NOT what I think.

We could mothball three of the AW tracks and use the other three much more in winter.

There's a place up here for AW because we can get bad winters but, to be fair, AW meetings can be lost to fog and high winds so the powers-that-be don't like the term All-Weather and prefer Winter Flat Racing. They also have a use in spring and autumn if grass courses are heavy or waterlogged and there's a lot to be said for running your 2-y-o and inexperienced 3-y-o on the Polytrack or Tapeta rather than on heavy turf.

As for NZ, I can see a place for one AW track somewhere providing bread-and-butter racing for TAB and overseas consumption though that might need some imaginative race timings. For example, if you started an AW meeting under lights at 9pm in the winter would be 10am in the summer up here and it might make for morning betting shop coverage as an alternative to dogs and cartoon races. Start your AW meeting at 8am on a warm summer morning and it's 7pm the night before on a winter's evening in the UK and again it might work and if the British bookies pay for it, who cares? 

Only Lingfield not floodlite now so caters for the night crowd and winter evening off course  , I understand Chelmsford gets the Essex Boys in in decent numbers ( hopefully the sawn off gets left at the gate ) . I remember those long winters stuck with the dogs and then trying to work out the French trots , all horses starting with same letter and mid race disqualified,  if they didn't do something it was over for bookies , I remember I TV 7 being from Hackney and Catford one Saturday arvo  Old Rapportuer was the horse , the king of sand in early days and horse call Saluk tore round Southwell , both tore it up . The hurdle racing was god awful on them .

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3 hours ago, stodge said:

 

 

As for NZ, I can see a place for one AW track somewhere providing bread-and-butter racing for TAB and overseas consumption though that might need some imaginative race timings. For example, if you started an AW meeting under lights at 9pm in the winter would be 10am in the summer up here and it might make for morning betting shop coverage as an alternative to dogs and cartoon races. Start your AW meeting at 8am on a warm summer morning and it's 7pm the night before on a winter's evening in the UK and again it might work and if the British bookies pay for it, who cares? 

That's a good point.    

The M report was about [ among a lot of other stuff that hasn't been implemented ]     upgrading tracks to provide an attractive betting product, and using our advantageous time-slot.

But, if you think 3 AWT's is enough and 6 is too many,  WTF are we doing ploughing ahead going into debt installing 3 in our tiny population?

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3 hours ago, coro fan said:

I have just had a conversation with a committee member about this - there wasn’t anywhere to put a trainer with 20 horses.

The course is set up for overnight stays and Raceday horse accomodation. There are also small paddocks and stable blocks on the west side of the property that owner trainers, those with 2-4 horses rent.

Back in the hey day all the larger trainers owned their own property, Washdyke and Kennel Road was a racehorse trainer village with several well appointed yards, the trainers would hack to the track. 

I was going to point that out, but you beat me to it!

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5 hours ago, coro fan said:

I have just had a conversation with a committee member about this - there wasn’t anywhere to put a trainer with 20 horses.

The course is set up for overnight stays and Raceday horse accomodation. There are also small paddocks and stable blocks on the west side of the property that owner trainers, those with 2-4 horses rent.

Back in the hey day all the larger trainers owned their own property, Washdyke and Kennel Road was a racehorse trainer village with several well appointed yards, the trainers would hack to the track. 

Thank you for that. I was more thinking that if they had $10.5m to toss around over the whole complex there are some bare paddocks nearby, notably immediately to the north, that they might be able to purchase to provide opportunities for trainers. Awapuni and Riccarton seem to be busy selling off land to fund various developments but don't seem to be putting anything into encouraging young trainers.

My main point is that I can think of better ways to spend $10.5m+ in Canterbury than the current proposal. Actually spending it in the provinces would be one idea.

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6 hours ago, stodge said:

Yes but AW racing in the UK wasn't set up for the benefit of the flat racing community - it was set up to keep money coming into racing via betting turnover. 

There was one Christmas in the 80s when all the racing on Boxing Day and the following day was lost because of frost and snow. The bookies decided they couldn't tolerate the lost income so were big drivers in getting the initial AW tracks set up at Lingfield and Southwell.

We now have six AW tracks which is three too many and they are all grossly under-used. AW tracks are easy to maintain and could race 100-120 days a year but over here that doesn't happen. Some might argue we could scale back the grass tracks and have more AW meetings but that's NOT what I think.

We could mothball three of the AW tracks and use the other three much more in winter.

There's a place up here for AW because we can get bad winters but, to be fair, AW meetings can be lost to fog and high winds so the powers-that-be don't like the term All-Weather and prefer Winter Flat Racing. They also have a use in spring and autumn if grass courses are heavy or waterlogged and there's a lot to be said for running your 2-y-o and inexperienced 3-y-o on the Polytrack or Tapeta rather than on heavy turf.

As for NZ, I can see a place for one AW track somewhere providing bread-and-butter racing for TAB and overseas consumption though that might need some imaginative race timings. For example, if you started an AW meeting under lights at 9pm in the winter would be 10am in the summer up here and it might make for morning betting shop coverage as an alternative to dogs and cartoon races. Start your AW meeting at 8am on a warm summer morning and it's 7pm the night before on a winter's evening in the UK and again it might work and if the British bookies pay for it, who cares? 

What do you think the British bookies would pay for beaming in racing from NZ , Yank racing goes on all evening , dogs , and local floodlit,  to be honest Stodge , a fiver ? 

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3 minutes ago, We're Doomed said:

Thank you for that. I was more thinking that if they had $10.5m to toss around over the whole complex there are some bare paddocks nearby, notably immediately to the north, that they might be able to purchase to provide opportunities for trainers. Awapuni and Riccarton seem to be busy selling off land to fund various developments but don't seem to be putting anything into encouraging young trainers.

My main point is that I can think of better ways to spend $10.5m+ in Canterbury than the current proposal. Actually spending it in the provinces would be one idea.

Well, it would be more in keeping with the advertised intentions of the PGF.

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10 minutes ago, We're Doomed said:

Thank you for that. I was more thinking that if they had $10.5m to toss around over the whole complex there are some bare paddocks nearby, notably immediately to the north, that they might be able to purchase to provide opportunities for trainers. Awapuni and Riccarton seem to be busy selling off land to fund various developments but don't seem to be putting anything into encouraging young trainers.

My main point is that I can think of better ways to spend $10.5m+ in Canterbury than the current proposal. Actually spending it in the provinces would be one idea.

That land is owned by the racecourse, it is leased to a local vet who runs a stud. The racecourse is a DOC reserve and the land is unable to be sold.

However if  And it is a big IF, some of the 10 mill came the way of Phar Lap raceway, and trainers wanted to relocate, anything could be possible as in barns being built and an upgrade of training facilities.

 

 

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30 minutes ago, coro fan said:

Imagine was an amazing facility Washdyke could be with a couple  of mill spent on it ........ dreams are free :)

I agree. It has a lot going for it location wise, and no need to build an all weather track. Messara wanted to close it altogether, which in my view indicated what a total waste of time his report was.

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1 hour ago, We're Doomed said:

I agree. It has a lot going for it location wise, and no need to build an all weather track. Messara wanted to close it altogether, which in my view indicated what a total waste of time his report was.

As I said yesty it is nice and central,centralizing at one end of the nag population ain't centralizing.

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3 hours ago, mikenz said:

As I said yesty it is nice and central,centralizing at one end of the nag population ain't centralizing.

Agree. Makes sense. The likes of Newmarket and The Curragh are near to but not in the likes of London or Dublin. A SI equivalent of those? Worked there for a long time.

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12 hours ago, Red Rum said:

What do you think the British bookies would pay for beaming in racing from NZ , Yank racing goes on all evening , dogs , and local floodlit,  to be honest Stodge , a fiver ? 

The bookies over here are open 7.30am to 9pm so that's a very long day.

A couple of Irish dog tracks stage early morning meetings (8am) and, as you say, we have American horse and dog racing into the small hours.

The thing is, betting is a 24/7 activity in the online world so Sha Tin will get its takers tomorrow morning (UK) with a 6am start and live-ish coverage on Sky Sports Racing (HKJC insist on a delay for overseas broadcast).

Racing TV has no all-night coverage while Sky Sports Racing shows US racing to 2am and Australian racing from 2am to 6am.

I'd mention the UK/Ireland isn't the only betting environment. They bet like heroes in China and Japan - does NZ racing get shown there in the mornings and I wouldn't rule out the Middle East where betting is forbidden but happens.

Selling the product to an online betting platform would bring in some income but watching Ellerslie or Riccarton at 2am would be better than Los Alamitos or Remington quarter horse racing or harnass racing from Dover Downs. 

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12 hours ago, mikenz said:

Is there anybody in the Timaru club who is smart enough to get some positives for these ideas and remember a lot of trainers can also voice their opinions , what do they want ,it affects them more than anybody else

 

After the M report and the absolute crock of s*** drive by inspection he did, the club launched a petition that got 5000 plus signatures and presented to parliament - one BJ Anderton amongst others, was one of the first to sign it.

Unfortunately the local MP who was supporting the Club and petition was the one at the centre of the text/dick pic saga and has since resigned.........:D

The Club had to insist on a meeting on course with Bernard Saundry, who didn’t realise what facilities the course had including the farmland that is leased out, the on course caterer who runs a business out of the Greyway Lounge, and the turf farmer in the middle of the track, the motor homes and caravans that pay for short term stays etc. The only money this track ‘costs’ the industry is the money that comes from NZTR  to run a race day and the occasional grant from the safety fund.

The M report decreed that millions needed to be spent on the track - which is a load of absolute BS, yes the facilities need some refreshing, but the track is fine.

It was pointed out to Bernard that the PL track is dual code, an approved jumping venue, the flat races consistently attract good noms from all areas of the SI and that trainers want this track to stay open.

The venue is a good winter track, but could also be a good summer track - irrigation is available if needed.

There are also approx  60  gallopers plus 30  trotters trained at the course - not the huge numbers, but they all pay track fees.

The course is used by the general horse public as a venue to meet saddle fitters, chiropractors, farriers, Horse transport drop off and pick up point, schooling over the schooling fences in readiness for A & P shows etc

The Waimate Club is also going to run their date at Timaru, in spite of being pushed toward Oamaru, not sure why given that Waimate is in Canterbury and Oamaru is in Otago. Some background politics there I suspect. 

The trainers are supporting the venue and club - the number of horses nominated proves this, not sure what else can be done......

 

 

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35 minutes ago, coro fan said:

 

 

After the M report and the absolute crock of s*** drive by inspection he did, the club launched a petition that got 5000 plus signatures and presented to parliament - one BJ Anderton amongst others, was one of the first to sign it.

Unfortunately the local MP who was supporting the Club and petition was the one at the centre of the text/dick pic saga and has since resigned.........:D

The Club had to insist on a meeting on course with Bernard Saundry, who didn’t realise what facilities the course had including the farmland that is leased out, the on course caterer who runs a business out of the Greyway Lounge, and the turf farmer in the middle of the track, the motor homes and caravans that pay for short term stays etc. The only money this track ‘costs’ the industry is the money that comes from NZTR  to run a race day and the occasional grant from the safety fund.

The M report decreed that millions needed to be spent on the track - which is a load of absolute BS, yes the facilities need some refreshing, but the track is fine.

It was pointed out to Bernard that the PL track is dual code, an approved jumping venue, the flat races consistently attract good noms from all areas of the SI and that trainers want this track to stay open.

The venue is a good winter track, but could also be a good summer track - irrigation is available if needed.

There are also approx  60  gallopers plus 30  trotters trained at the course - not the huge numbers, but they all pay track fees.

The course is used by the general horse public as a venue to meet saddle fitters, chiropractors, farriers, Horse transport drop off and pick up point, schooling over the schooling fences in readiness for A & P shows etc

The Waimate Club is also going to run their date at Timaru, in spite of being pushed toward Oamaru, not sure why given that Waimate is in Canterbury and Oamaru is in Otago. Some background politics there I suspect. 

The trainers are supporting the venue and club - the number of horses nominated proves this, not sure what else can be done......

 

 

Thank you for that insight. Better be careful telling Bernie they own farmland, he would sell it at a drop of the hat.

Do you have any idea if the club suggested they might be the logical ones to race on New Year's Day when Waikouaiti got kicked off?

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