ownership idea

[Allovertheform 3]

can i get some peoples feedback on the following??????

PHINZ PLAN Version 2 (1).docx

[nomates 3,552]

38 minutes ago, Allovertheform said:

can i get some peoples feedback on the following??????

PHINZ PLAN Version 2 (1).docx 26.54 kB · 5 downloads

Might struggle to get people into 5000 shares , could be quite cumbersome dealing with those numbers , communication etc . 

I would be much more interested in less participants with larger initial investment and on going costs .

 Biggest issue is confidence levels in NZ racing .

 Good luck tho .

[Allovertheform 3]

Just now, nomates said:

Might struggle to get people into 5000 shares , could be quite cumbersome dealing with those numbers , communication etc . 

I would be much more interested in less participants with larger initial investment and on going costs .

 Biggest issue is confidence levels in NZ racing .

 Good luck tho .

first of all you could buy more than one share you could buy 10 if you wanted. . . . . .

i have to agree with you around the confidence with in nz racing my model means that horses could also be based in ozzie. . . . . .

 

this ownership model is turning the way people think about ownership on its head and treating it as a investment more than a hobby.

[Aaron Bidlake 760]

Good forward thinking...But I think the biggest problem with those sort of numbers if do you really feel like an owner when a horse is racing and there is 4999 other shares in it?   I've just taken a horse back in to work today  I am syndicating with 1% shares available to encourage new people to get involved, not sure i'd be wanting to to deal with anything less than that, not really worth the hassle I don't think.

Geez the paperwork for 5000 shares...

[shaneMcAlister 1,425]

5,000 is a very large number, that is selling a membership to everyone in the town the size of Huntly.  I believe Best Bets circulation was 1,500.

[Red Rum 1,833]

23 minutes ago, shaneMcAlister said:

5,000 is a very large number, that is selling a membership to everyone in the town the size of Huntly.  I believe Best Bets circulation was 1,500.

Elite Racing  Club best in business for low cost multi member syndications and been so for decades , but big population to sell to in UK , they race , breed , have produced some very smart racehorses . Website worth a look .Colours seen on racetracks daily .

[Dissident 155]

Like your thinking, outside of the square. Yes that qty and confidence in nz racing would be biggest challenge. Good idea planning to have some trained in Oz. Are you planning to market to Oz as well? I think a good mix including the breeding side too. Could get a few pin hooks and take them to R2R sales? Minimum term 12 months? 

[Red Rum 1,833]

49 minutes ago, shaneMcAlister said:

5,000 is a very large number, that is selling a membership to everyone in the town the size of Huntly.  I believe Best Bets circulation was 1,500.

They bred Dandino .

[Allovertheform 3]

25 minutes ago, Dissident said:

Like your thinking, outside of the square. Yes that qty and confidence in nz racing would be biggest challenge. Good idea planning to have some trained in Oz. Are you planning to market to Oz as well? I think a good mix including the breeding side too. Could get a few pin hooks and take them to R2R sales? Minimum term 12 months? 

thats my issue no one in new zealand racing can see past there own patch people need to be thinking of other ways to make racing in new zealand great like it once was. . . . 

 

yes minimum term 12 months. . . . . . .

 

yes there is heaps you could do with this as its not a ownship model as such more of an investment company model.  just needs to change peoples way of thinking around ownership etc.

[Allovertheform 3]

1 hour ago, Aaron Bidlake said:

Good forward thinking...But I think the biggest problem with those sort of numbers if do you really feel like an owner when a horse is racing and there is 4999 other shares in it?   I've just taken a horse back in to work today  I am syndicating with 1% shares available to encourage new people to get involved, not sure i'd be wanting to to deal with anything less than that, not really worth the hassle I don't think.

Geez the paperwork for 5000 shares...

this model would be an investment into a company not anyone individual horse the company owns. . . so you would have shares in multiple horses at anyone time 

[Nukkledragga 229]

3 minutes ago, Allovertheform said:

this model would be an investment into a company not anyone individual horse the company owns. . . so you would have shares in multiple horses at anyone time 

I think the first fortuna / te akau syndicates had 3 or 4 horses at say 50k each and were syndicated for 100k each which covered costs for 2 years(I stand to be corrected) when they would be wound up win lose or draw.The secret of their success was selecting winners.I think those numbers could still be close to the mark and more achievable . With roughly the same buy in ,less than a thousand shares.

[Allovertheform 3]

13 minutes ago, Nukkledragga said:

I think the first fortuna / te akau syndicates had 3 or 4 horses at say 50k each and were syndicated for 100k each which covered costs for 2 years(I stand to be corrected) when they would be wound up win lose or draw.The secret of their success was selecting winners.I think those numbers could still be close to the mark and more achievable . With roughly the same buy in ,less than a thousand shares.

i think you need to change the way you think around horse ownership.

your not purchasing shares in one horse your purchasing shares in a company that will own multiple horses for the purposes of racing/breeding. 

 

[Nukkledragga 229]

33 minutes ago, Allovertheform said:

i think you need to change the way you think around horse ownership.

your not purchasing shares in one horse your purchasing shares in a company that will own multiple horses for the purposes of racing/breeding. 

 

They were bundled in 3s 4s and 5s, maybe the 1st sentence was a bit ambiguous

[Peter R S 411]

Good luck allover, hope you have more interest than I got about 3 years ago when I advertised the following, but got nothing but tyre kickers and ended up with a smaller group of friends in a partnership, (with me having about half share) in the first horse. My advice would be leave it to the experienced syndicators.

“If you would like to race a horse but the costs are prohibitive for you, here is your opportunity.
I am forming a company called 4 Times the Fun Ltd and there are 20 shares available - all 
shareholders will commit to paying in $50pw. The company will lease 4 x 40% shares in different 
horses. The contributions will be properly accounted for and the surplus of contributions over costs 
will be distributed back to the shareholders regularly, along with stakes won.
The emphasis is on fun, hence minority shares in 4 horses rather than a lease on just 1 horse - spread 
the risk and increase the enjoyment. Only well bred horses and reputable trainers will be involved.
Regular updates will be by email. Sorry but your name can't be in the race book as the company 
name will appear, but you will be a recognized owner every time they race.
Contact me by email if you would like more information.
Please email your interest to xxxxxxxx(redacted).”

[Berri 2,131]

I proposed an alternative to this multiple ownership initiative using a completely different registration process for ownership where ownership shares could be traded. The proposal was investigated legally but the NZTR haven't followed through. 

[Catalano 951]

How about this...

 

Get your own trainer, buy 200 horses at the sale, spend an average of 10k each = $2 million

Hold for two years, and sell all stock at the end.

Break them into tranches, the first tranche, you get some quant guy to do the numbers and show that you are mathematically guaranteed to make 1.5% on 30% of the total investment.

Get that credit rated AA+ or somesuch and sell it to professional investors.

Next tranche of 30% gets their notional back plus makes a maximum of 10% on their investment, after payouts to tranche 1.

Final tranche, which would have to be called the 'Champion Tranche', gets everything over and above what is paid out prior (or nothing).

All we need to do is work out how to leverage it up and sell to bankers...

 

[Peter R S 411]

The word “Ponzi” comes to mind!

[shaneMcAlister 1,425]

8 minutes ago, Peter R S said:

The word “Ponzi” comes to mind!

that name is available

[Allovertheform 3]

34 minutes ago, Catalano said:

How about this...

 

Get your own trainer, buy 200 horses at the sale, spend an average of 10k each = $2 million

Hold for two years, and sell all stock at the end.

Break them into tranches, the first tranche, you get some quant guy to do the numbers and show that you are mathematically guaranteed to make 1.5% on 30% of the total investment.

Get that credit rated AA+ or somesuch and sell it to professional investors.

Next tranche of 30% gets their notional back plus makes a maximum of 10% on their investment, after payouts to tranche 1.

Final tranche, which would have to be called the 'Champion Tranche', gets everything over and above what is paid out prior (or nothing).

All we need to do is work out how to leverage it up and sell to bankers...

 

wouldn't  you best to buy between 15 to 20 horses at 100k+/ ones that half a decent pedigree page that's what my idea is about my idea is just not about the racing side of things but also developing the breeding side of the industry. . . . . . .

[Catalano 951]

14 hours ago, Allovertheform said:

wouldn't  you best to buy between 15 to 20 horses at 100k+

No, the bigger the numbers, the less volatility in the outcome - using your logic, why not just buy one very well bred horse @ $1.5 million?

I do however concede that there are some serious flaws in my suggestion

15 hours ago, Peter R S said:

The word “Ponzi” comes to mind!

 I prefer Collateralised Horse Obligation, or CHO.

 

[Allovertheform 3]

7 hours ago, Catalano said:

No, the bigger the numbers, the less volatility in the outcome - using your logic, why not just buy one very well bred horse @ $1.5 million?

I do however concede that there are some serious flaws in my suggestion

 I prefer Collateralised Horse Obligation, or CHO.

 

my idea would have horses brought at all levels of the market to help manage risk vs reward!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Nerula 1,400]

So whats the idea, Take a margin. Skim? There a lot of pretty sharp people run syndicates in NZ. Unless you are very clued up run a mile.

The very low ROI would guarantee a loss unless you hooked a champ. Losses are not tax deductable for loss making companies that cant demonstrate a plan to profit.. Even a creative prospectus wouldnt cut it without running the jeopardy of fraud charges.

Old saying "many a pioneer lost his ass"

[Allovertheform 3]

19 minutes ago, Nerula said:

So whats the idea, Take a margin. Skim? There a lot of pretty sharp people run syndicates in NZ. Unless you are very clued up run a mile.

The very low ROI would guarantee a loss unless you hooked a champ. Losses are not tax deductable for loss making companies that cant demonstrate a plan to profit.. Even a creative prospectus wouldnt cut it without running the jeopardy of fraud charges.

Old saying "many a pioneer lost his ass"

for a start this is not a syndication model this is an investment model and will have many forms of developing a return. 

Edited August 4, 2020 by Allovertheform
spelling

[Nerula 1,400]

When the average ROI is around 20% it is not a winning investment. It would need to around 50% to have a viable company risk. And that is poor odds for a company. Russian roulette is way better.

[shaneMcAlister 1,425]

11 hours ago, Nerula said:

When the average ROI is around 20% it is not a winning investment. It would need to around 50% to have a viable company risk. And that is poor odds for a company. Russian roulette is way better.

I told people at work that the ROI on horses was 20%, they all wanted to get involved.  They explained it was a great return.  Then I clicked I should have said ROI is minus 80%!!!